Andy Woods message is attached, and in it he says: “we (pre-Trib teachers) interact with their position but they (the postTrib teachers) don’t interact wit ours”. He obviously has not been to my site. My entire site was established to interact with his pre-Trib position, and I do so on a regular basis, answering their points as I am doing even now with this post.
As an aside every time I attempt to interact with a pre-Trib blog site with scripture and questions challenging their position I am blocked.
In message 36 on Andy’s u-tube platform he is dealing with the post-trib errors that he finds in our thinking concerning the time of Rapture.
One of his issues is concerning the scripture in Revelation 20, involving the first resurrection. Concerning this verse Andy makes the case that post Trib teachers had to search Revelation to find a scripture supporting their view, but that the use of first resurrection here does not mean that it is the first time resurrection has occurred. The chart he uses lists three sections to the resurrection. First Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection; then comes harvest, which to him is the church’s resurrection where Rapture occurs – before the Tribulation, then there is the gleaning which represents Israel’s resurrection, and which is seen in this Revelation 20 verse and it is all together called the first resurrection. The first resurrection of course is no where described as Andy describes it in the scriptures. The Harvest does resemble what he sees. But to Andy the general harvest occurs pre-Trib. He even makes it clear that he does not need to look within Revelation as the post-Trib teachers do for the resurrection, because he believes that it is already happened pre-Tribulationaly. So the question that we must ask is where exactly does he find this resurrection equaling harvest before tribulation. Is there actually such a verse to describe the timing of the harvest in pre-Tribulational scripture? There is not, but there is one:
Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, with a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. And another angel came out of the temple, calling out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “ Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.” Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.
Revelation 14:14-16 NASB
These verses are the only verses connected with the general harvest from the earth equating to resurrection and Rapture. And this harvest is directly connected to the trampling of the wine press of our Lord’s wrath at His coming. This fact becomes clear, as you read the remainder of the 14th chapter. It can be argued that this harvest is also connected to the chapter 19 return of Christ to conduct this act of wrath at which time there is the stated first resurrection. The following verse depicts this first resurrection in Old Testament terms.
Daniel 12:b And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace [and] everlasting contempt. (NASB1995)
There are two groups of people stated to be resurrected — Daniel’s people and “the others”. Daniel’s people will be those found in the book. This would be a description of First resurrection and thecsecond death found in Revelation 20.
Herein is the question — are we who are in Christ’s church included with Daniel’s people? If not we are not found in this resurrection promise? If not are we found in a different resurrection promise? Andy says that only Israel is raised in Revelation 20 based on these verses. They are raised because they are the gleanings from the harvest promised because Christ was the first fruits of harvest. We are according to Andy Woods the main harvest.
So the irony of Andy’s argument is this. He argues that we cannot be a part of this first resurrection described in Rev 20, because there is no mention of our presence. Yet he says that Israel is part of this resurrection, even though there is no mention of their presence either. There is another irony in his argument, because his belief that the Rapture is pre-Trib is based on our connection to the resurrection harvest shown in
Revelation 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door [standing] open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like [the sound] of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” (NASB1995)
If Andy can argue that the church is not present in Revelation 20’s first resurrection, because she is not mentioned there; then how can he argue that she is present here in Rev 4:1? There is no mention of the church here either. There in fact is no trumpet in Rev 4:1, but a voice as a trumpet. There is no coming of the Lord in the clouds as in 1 Thess 4. What is his reason for concluding this?— the 24 elders of course, they represent the church. Where in scripture is that comparison found? It is not.
We cannot be illogical in our study, and Andy has been here in his. So what is the truth? Are we considered one with Daniel’s people? That is a question that must be answered. So let’s examine it.
Where should we start? Well Daniel’s savior is our savior. He is their redeemer in Isa. 54, and will be their husband. He is our redeemer, and our husband. He is Daniel’s Messiah, and our Christ. Messiah and Christ, have the same meaning. Daniel who’s name is in the book is in the Olive tree with the entire remnant of Israel, and we are also in that tree and in that book. They were promised a New covenant; we are in that covenant with them.
What else ties us to Daniel and his people? Ephesians 2:12 [remember] that you were at that time (what time) separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (NASB1995)
Yes before we were saved we were outside of Israel and her messiah, but in Christ we are Paul tells us one new man in Israel and in her Messiah. One with the saints.
Ephesians 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both [groups into] one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, [which is] the Law of commandments [contained] in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, [thus] establishing peace, (NASB1995)
So even though Andy wants us separated we cannot be, not so long as we are in Christ.
What else might Jesus have to say to us about the time of resurrection?
Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and the women are given in marriage, 35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 for they cannot even die anymore, for they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:34-36 NASB
Understand that Jesus is talking to Jews in this passage, and He places them in the age before the resurrection, and he makes that age which they are in equal to our own age, when the future sons of God are still marrying. And unlike what Andy tells us Jesus includes the tribulation period when men still marry and have children as part of this same age when men marry and are given in marriage. And He tells us as Paul does that the sons of God are revealed in the next age which is to come where there will be no marriage for the sons of God.
So one would expect that if we were to search scripture for an age known as “the church age”that, that search would fail. So why don’t you attempt that search, just to be sure that we are right. And remember if there is no Church age; then there is no pre-Trib Rapture of this Church that Jesus is building fromHis people. Is the Church then including the Church in the wilderness?
Jesus will return for a bride who has made herself ready Rev.19.
Following are the things Andy tells us that Post-Trib theology teaches. I think that you have glimpsed that there is much more depth to the Eschatology of Scripture than Andy has ever allowed himself to become aware.
You will find these charts of Andy’s at the end below his link. These purport to be his understanding of the post-Tribulation Rapture arguments. There is so much more to Scripture, and the post-Trib return; than what he sees. The Bride will possess this understanding before Messiah returns.
Attached is his video link below: think on all of these scriptural truths and even so much more when you study.