#1) The Bible describes the Rapture and Second Coming as different events.
What proof exactly is presented to support this. Everyone knows that there is a coming of Jesus attached to the Rapture. So what one has to believe is that there are two second comings of Jesus separated by seven years, or by many years depending on the particular pre-Trib theologian doing the teaching. Paul says that Jesus comes as a thief in the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 5. Revelation reveals the timing of this coming to be during the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 16. It occurs before the final bowl of wrath. His coming is therefore post-Tribulational. It is one Second Coming.
#2) The Rapture is described as occurring at any time without warning.
Is it? Again read 1 Thess. 5, and you will find that we are not in darkness that this event should take us by surprise. Were the return of the Lord truly imminent down through the ages as these men believe it was then they would have a case, but Paul makes very clear that this day will not come before there is an easily identifiable apostasy and a revealing of the man of sin (the Antichrist) in 2 Thessalonians 2.
#3) The Rapture and the removal of the “Restrainer” occur at the same time.
This is an assumption, with no clear teaching. There is no attachment of the church to the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2. In fact the church has never restrained evil in the world, but in fact it is seen by the world as being the evil needing to be eradicated. Jesus had said “in this world you will have persecution.” He Even said Tribulation. He said “ if they hated me they will hate you”. There is a recreated Jesus out there today who is loved by the world. He is a Jesus who loves every man and judges none. He condemns no one, no sin and no disobedience and never will. A recent CNN pole says that about 46% of the church today doesn’t even believe in a rapture, about 36% believes in a pre-Trib rapture, and the remainder about 18% in a post-Trib Rapture. Why am I saying this, to let you know that a church that can’t even figure out the truth for itself has already all but lost its influence on the World it is sent to testify to. And quite frankly they the world never did want to hear the truth. After all they crucified Jesus — the Truth.
#4) The Tribulation is for Israel’s redemption.
This of course is true, but how does this truth designate the timing of the Rapture? Because Tribulation is also taught by Jesus as being for the believer. As stated above “In this world you will have Tribulation” but we are not to fear because He goes on to tell us that He has overcome the world.
But there is another clear teaching missed by pre-Trib thinkers. I’ll speak to it when answering another point, but will just say for now — we are the children of Abraham — israel. That may shock you unless you have been following my site for awhile. But just stick with me for a bit.
#5) The Tribulation is not for the Church.
How can one say this? It is not until after the events of the Tribulation that John is told that “the bride has made herself ready”(Rev.19). It is the offspring of Israel (you and I) who draw the attention of Antichrist when he is unable to get to the nation Israel’s Remnant. (Rev.12). It is the churches who will see the Great Tribulation (Rev. 2:22-23).
#6) God’s wrath involves the whole 7-Year Tribulation.
Not so. God’s (Thumos anger translated Wrath) is poured out to bring about repentance. It is God’s final call to a lost world. His (Orge wrath) which we are promised to escape is not seen until His second coming. Read my Aug 11, 2017 article. Is The Great Tribulation Really God’s Wrath — is it really the wrath that we will not see?
#7) The Old Testament and Revelation leave the Church out of the Tribulation.
Let me start by saying that we the church are in Him, in Who? — Peter said “Thou art the Christ (Messiah of Israel), Son of the living God”. Jesus said — paraphrased “your right Peter, and on this rock — (Jesus is the rock) I will build my church (Ekklessia). So what did this mean to these Jewish disciples? The Ekklessia is recorded more times in the O. T. then in the New. Peter knew that this referred to the remnant from Israel. Messiah is building His Church. It was in the Old Testament. We have already seen that it is also in the Tribulation.
#8) The Church is busy elsewhere during the Tribulation.
The church he says is in heaven at a marriage. He says — “no word ‘church’ is present on earth in Revelation” following chapter 3. So let’s follow that logic — show me where the word “church” is recorded in heaven in any of the scenes depicting heaven during the Tribulation. Using this logic (the absence of a word — specifically the word church) presented by all pre-Tribbers the Church then must have ceased to exist completely. We completely disappeared and never re-emerge.
#9) There needs to be sheep to separate from the goats.
This refers to Matthew 25 and the judgment of the nations. He contends that the sheep are the saved of the Tribulation. Read the passage. There are 3 groups of people present here. Jesus brethren, the sheep and the goats. The sheep are there on the right because they helped Jesus brethren during Tribulation. No mention of being saved, but remember they are not yet dead, and Jesus seeks to save lost sheep. The goats He does not seek to save. The goats did not help His brethren and therefore are cast into the lake of fire. These sheep and goats are people of the nations who were not among the armies of the world who came up against Israel. The sheep will go into the kingdom prepared for them to be ruled for 1000 years. Read my book.
#10) The Bible shows God rescues the righteous from His wrath
No one disputes this. He is correct about this one thing. He even rescues the remnant of the nation Israel from His wrath, and they my friend are present for the entire Tribulation as are Gentile believers in Christ.
#11) The Pre-Tribulation Rapture view is not too new to discount.
Read my book. It (the pre-Trib view) is new and there is deception surrounding it. There is but one truth on this subject. That truth is revealed in the word of God. Most dispensational teachers will state that this is not a cardinal doctrine. I suppose that that is to tell us that it is not applicable to our salvation. But my friend Truth does matter to God. He is the truth. What dispensational teaching does is to divide God’s people. But it also divides the message of scripture. For example you and I can’t take the message of Matthew 24 as being for us because they say it is just for the Jews. Neither can we apply passages about falling from grace to be about the church because individuals in the church cannot lose salvation. Those who fall will be Jews. Yet Paul says: for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:21-22
This my friend was written to those of us in Him, in Christ. We can be cut off from the Olive Tree supported by Him — the root, just as individuals from Israel were cut off from the tree. Remember not all from Israel was cut off. The Remnant remained, and we were added in by adoption. Unnatural branches added to His chosen and supported by the root. The same root supporting Israel’s chosen. We are one new man. God is no respecter of persons.
Amen !!
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Thanks for following.
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And thank you too.
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I am very impressed at your reasoning ! It is enjoyable to discuss these biblical issues with you even if our interpretation may not agree ! Thanks for sharing and thanks for your friendship, brother!
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Thanks, I enjoy your wisdom as well. Good having a brother like yourself close by.
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Good mornin Jerry!!!😃
Man I ain’t heard from you in a while, and it’s good to hear from you brother.
Coincidentally I had a discussion with a brother at work about an hour ago about this.
He is dispensational, and was kindly presenting his views supporting a pre tribulation perspective.
I briefly explained my post tribulation rapture view, and that was about it. We both installed God’s niceness upon each other.
So praise God that this topic doesn’t necessarily divide brothers.
😃
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Good to hear. We should never be divided over differences. My opinion, but always looking for truth, which means we need to be open to it. Were you ever pre-Trib or always post?
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Hi Jerry,
I used to be pre trib, but I didn’t analyze about it much. I was just going along with the mainstream thought in churchland.
But when I kicked all systematic theologies to the curb, I re examined a lot of my beliefs.
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And I’m glad you put your name on your site.
That makes visiting a lot better.
You know how it is. Have you ever tried to visit with someone and the only name you have to type is praiseandworshipleader3 😅
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Your right about that brother. I liked your video. Pretty part of Texas you live in. I’ve visited the San Antonio area. Ellen and I both have cousins there. Love San Antonio. What town are you near. Be good and keep posting.
On Wed, Jan 10, 2018 at 8:15 PM And Then Messiah Shall Come wrote:
>
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Hi friend!
We live in Katy Texas, (west side of Houston).
And we love San Antonio. It’s about 180 miles west of us.
And I just enjoy being your friend Jerry. You’re a nice man, and I appreciate your niceness to me.
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Lee, I’ve heard of Katy, I’ve been through Huston. Thanks for the compliment. The friendship is welcomed and appreciated.
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Question #1:
The Rapture will occur when Jesus Christ eturns for his church. This is when all true believers in Christ will be taken from the earth by God into heaven (1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
The Second Coming will happen when Jesus Christ returns to the earth to defeat the antichrist, overthrow evil and then establish his thousand-year reign (Revelation 19:11-16).
Source: https://www.thoughtco.com/rapture-vs-the-second-coming-700630
I hope your “amen” crowd hasn’t left you unteachable. The scriptures will answer you and your “answers.” Open the Bible as you learn and pray for God to reveal the truth to you.
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Sherri, don’t miss this post. I posted it just for you.
Here I Answer What is Seen As: Key Differences Between the Rapture and the Second Coming as seen on: thoughtco.com
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Unfortunately my bolded parts of the comment didn’t bold correctly-it is bolded correctly in the article, though.
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Sherry, you seem to be committed to pre-Trib theology. You state that you hope that the amens are not unteachable. I was raised and educated in pre-Trib theology. But while trying to prove it from scripture, I found that to be an impossible task. I posted all of these articles for people who are teachable to either learn from or refute with their Scriptural support. You as an example are using someone else to argue your points for you by referring to a pre-Trib site. Believe me I have a whole library of pre-Trib books. I have written two myself in order to challenge them with the Scripture. The two passages you list are Rapture passages. Neither of them tell us when the Rapture will occur. There are scriptures that tell us that, and you are correct that when the Rapture occurs the Church, the bride, will be caught up, but my question for you is this — can you quote for me or show a reference from scripture that will tell us that the Rapture is pre-Trib, or Mid-Trib, or Post Trib? If not then you need to find that Scripture and come back here and post it. The ones you listed above do not reveal the timing. Although you are real close and I will be happy to help you in your quest for truth if you are interested. The Scriptures are our only source of truth not man. Don’t believe anything I say about God’s truth or His plan for our future unless I can support it with Scripture. I suggest you do the same with other teachers.
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I’m glad you are scholarly on the subject but let God be true and all men liars. There is a crown laid up for those who await and love His appearing. The rapture is imminent and unknown as to the time it happens and pre-trib is the ONLY rapture that fits that scenario. There are no events to look for that will alert us to it. There is for Christ’s 2nd Coming. If the rapture is mid-trib, we will see events to let us know. Same with post-trib. So Jesus lied to us about not knowing the day or hour? Did He not warn us to be watchful lest the master comes and finds us not working? Evidently, that is your belief! Go, study up on the wedding rituals of Jesus’ day and you will understand the pre-trib rapture a bit better (its what clinched it for me). Also, learn to distinguish the scriptures’ differences between the rapture of the Church from the earth before the Tribulation (1 Corinthians 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) and the rapture of the wicked from off of the earth after the Tribulation (Matthew 13:39, 41, 49; 24:31; 25:31;Revelation 1:7-the wicked are in fear knowing they are about to be removed!) at the 2nd Coming before Christ sits on the Throne of David. Just a side note: I don’t believe the pre-trib rapture is going to be a hidden event. So, it seems I’m not 100% in line with some scholars on that aspect as yet. You presume I haven’t done my research on the subject-touche! I confess to thinking the same of you since the pre-trib rapture is so simply and so brightly shown in scriptures! But, alas, post tribbers want to make the rapture after the Tribulation to be the rapture of the saints when it is about the cleansing of the earth by removal of the wicked…its an easy mistake and many brilliant scholars make it…I should have remembered that.
BTW, that one site is nothing but the scriptures! Guess you missed that? Here is another one that is more scholarly (more at your level): http://tribulationrisingcom.fatcow.com/matthew-24-and-the-rapture/
And don’t despise me for bringing to you what others teach since it lines up with scriptures. Do you say the same to those who use your studies/research? I’m not near as brilliant as you are nor do I have the time to write out scripture verse by scripture verse with you on the subject. Truth is still truth whether you choose to believe it or not.
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I certainly agree that truth is what matters. I hope you know that scholarly has nothing to do with truth. The scripture must support our doctrine (our truth) I really don’t know where to start with you because you seem wedded to what you believe. You imply that the only ones who can love Our Lords appearing is a pre Trib believer. Do you really think that to be true? In your view will the Lord return on the Day of the Lord? Do you have a good handle on the day of the Lord? Do you know what significance there is to the timing of the Rapture in Paul’s teaching in Ephesians 2. Where he tells us that we are now one with Israel’s saints participating in their covenants and promises? What does that mean to you? You mention. Why do you think that I know the day and the hour of Christ’s coming? I can’t know that Jesus said that He did not even know it — so how does a post Trib belief make Him a lier?
You say the wedding rituals of Jesus day clinched it for you. The Ancient Jewish wedding is the pattern the pre-Trib scholar claims for the Rapture and wedding. Here is what you may not have considered about it.
The Ancient Jewish wedding and the Chuppah and its tradition is the Biblical Pattern for our marriage to the Lamb of God.
For definition of the Chuppah we go to Strong’s Number: 2646
Word Origin from (02645) Transliterated Word Chuppah TDNT Entry TWOT – 710b Phonetic Spelling khoop-paw’ Parts of Speech Noun Feminine Definition 1. chamber, room, canopy, closet * a. canopy * b. chamber * c. divine protection or defense(fig.) * The usage in the O.T. Is bridal chamber (2). Canopy (1).
There is really very little usage of the word in the Old Testament, but implied in Jewish tradition is divine protection or defense associated with what is called the virginity cloth. So, what is the Virginity cloth and what is its significance? Today many translate the word to mean “covering” — so what did the Chuppah cover in Ancient times? Consider with me how the difference effects our understanding of the Ancient Jewish Wedding, and how that understanding then becomes the proof for when and where the wedding of the Lamb would take place. Here are the choices — if the current dispensational understanding which is based on the Chuppah is accepted as being a covering over the bride and groom, (this is the modern day definition of the word), then the wedding can be said to take place in the Fathers house and thus in heaven without anyone questioning it. But, if we look back on tradition to consider and learn from the ancient wedding we may think differently. Our question is — is it truth that the bride of Christ as “they say” must be married in the Father’s house. Jewish weddings as we know them did not first occur until sometime in the 1300’s. So, when we consider the very first wedding for Israel then we will also find reason for our understanding, and we do that based on the ancient use of the Chuppah. So what was that first wedding? God made a choice between Jacob and Esau. He chose Jacob who He later renamed Israel. So Jacob’s wedding was the earliest of the Ancient Jewish Weddings. The story is well known. Jacob fled from his fathers house after stealing Esau’s birth right, and went to Laban’s house. He saw Rachel and wanted her for his wife. You all know the story. He consummated two marriages while with Laban. He paid the bridal price and consummated each marriage in the brides chamber in the house of the bride.
Then we move forward to a time following Israel’s 400 year slavery in Egypt, and following the Red Sea crossing. Moses is now given the law. Included in the law was Deuteronomy 22:13-21. This is also confirmed in the (Dead Sea Scrolls: The Temple Scroll, 11QT = 11Q19). This passage speaks of the evidence of the brides virginity which is retained by the brides parents as protection against false accusations by the bridegroom.
Today we find that the modern Chuppah often has embroidered on the overhead canopy the names of the bride and groom. This is a practice taken from the Ancient Chuppah where the bride and or the brides mother would embroider the names on the virginity cloth, which would then be kept by the brides mother and father in their house as the evidence instructed in Deut. 22. The consummated marriage took place in the bridal chamber on what Jewish scholars call the virginity cloth. Thus the Chuppah in Jewish tradition was originally the covering for the marital bed in the brides house and chamber. Then following the consummation that took place there the festivities would began also in the bride’s house and then be moved to the father of the groom’s house where the groom had prepared a room for the bride.
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused (betrothed) you to one husband that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.” (2 Corinthians 11:2)
So if Jesus truly follows Ancient Jewish tradition Then it would seem that His marriage to His bride would be consummated on the earth following His coming.
Sherry, none of this is easy. It takes a lot of study. You have only studied one side of the argument.
You speak of Rapturing the wicked off the earth. If you read Revelation 14 beginning with vs 13 you will find that Jesus reaps the earth in the Rapture just before the angels reap the earth for the wine press of God’s wrath.
But you really do need to read my book, and I really will send you one free. E-mail me
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I decided to go to the following site that Sherry referred me to:
http://tribulationrisingcom.fatcow.com/matthew-24-and-the-rapture/
This is the beginning of the facts presented here:
The next time you question the pre-tribulation rapture with Matthew 24 as your evidence do yourself a favor and answer this question:
Did Jesus lie?
He uses Matt. 24: 29-31 to make his argument in support of this point. This scripture says:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Here is what he says about this scripture: “Here is why I ask. If Matthew 24 is evidence of a post-tribulation rapture then Jesus clearly lied in 24:36. How do we know this? There are no less than 35 verses given prior in this chapter that clearly define the times of the end – including these particular scriptures that are trumpeted by supporters of the post-tribulation rapture more than any other:”
Here is his problem: Jesus says here that immediately following the Tribulation there would be a sign. I speak of this sign in chapter 3 of the book. So I’ll summarize here. The sun, moon and stars make up THE sign, which is given in Genesis, Joel, and Isaiah. This sign occurs on earth before the Day of The Lord actually comes. You can read about this in Joel 3. So we have no idea how many days the earth will remain dark before the actual coming of the Lord following Tribulation. But we know that the Rapture occurs during this period of darkness. Listen to how Paul describes it:
Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, “ Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 NASB
The day of the Lord has always been thought to be the time of the Rapture by pre-Trib scholars, for this reason they try to include the Tribulation as part of this day. Paul who wrote this is the only one of the Apostles who was learned enough in the Old Testament Scriptures to know that the Rapture would occur suddenly and in total darkness all around the Globe. When the Sun, moon and stars do not shine, this then is the condition — total darkness. But for how many days? No one knows, this we are told — no man knows the day or the hour. Is Jesus a lier? No — are men liers, and unlearned in the scriptures. You be the Judge.
Yet, the writer on this site that Sherry shared with us says: “If Matthew 24 is evidence of a post-tribulation rapture then Jesus clearly lied in 24:36.” Yet this is the only statement in scripture that describes the timing of the rapture in relation to Tribulation. There is no other, there are many other scriptures that will support this timing. I list all of them and link them in my book of 370 pages. A book that took me 18 years to prepare after writing my first book. This is not a topic that one can just breeze through. Darby who dreamt up his pre-Trib theory did it with little help we are told, but it took him only a very few years. I have studied this subject since I was saved in my 20’s over 50 years ago. My first exposure to the subject was Hal Lindsay’s book, the Late Great Planet Earth. So, I began with the per-Trib theory as my foundation, but after years of more questioned than scripture could answer, I determined to just believe the Scripture. And thing began to come together. The book and articles on this blog are the result. God bless you as you study. Sherry, I’m also going to post this as a new thread, so others can benefit from it.
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Sherry, there are some more things that I hope you will give some prayer and consideration to.
The first is the one thousand year reign of Messiah. I want to speak of these things as they are presented on this site that you referred me to:
http://tribulationrisingcom.fatcow.com/matthew-24-and-the-rapture/
First let me say that all of the research with numbers in his article (TIME, TIMES AND DIVIDING OF TIMES. THE TIMING OF THE TRIBULATION)
is very impressive, but it is all done to make one point, and that point is — the DAY OF THE LORD is not 1000 years long. It is 1007 years long and it includes the Tribulation.
I want you to think about this — everything that is said in scripture concerning the DAY OF THE LORD is stated in clear terms. The day is 1000 years not 1007. The DAY does begin with the Rapture. It is sudden and unexpected by all the world. I’ll deal with that when I look at his next point. But for now remember — you and I are not of this world.
If you remember what I wrote you yesterday that THE DAY OF THE LORD on which we are Raptured begins with total darkness and there is no indication how long that darkness will last in numbers of days. But Paul tells us in 2 Thess. 2. That THAT DAY will not come until two things happen — the Apostasy (Jesus called this the falling away) and secondly the man of sin be revealed, who Jesus will destroy at His Coming. Jesus also spoke of this in Matthew 24.
What the fat cow site is doing is deceptive Sherry. They blow a lot of very impressive looking smoke in order to cover up the truth. Let’s deal with their next question or issue:
Next question – if the rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation (or even the middle as others believe) – exactly how does it come on the whole world as a trap? Other translations render this as “snare”. What exactly is a snare? It is a hidden trap, that springs unexpectedly on the victim, with no hope of escape.
The original Greek render the coming as αἰφνίδιος:
Strong’s Concordance
aiphnidios: sudden
Short Definition: unexpected, sudden
Definition: unexpected, sudden.
The use of the word aiphnidios in the original Greek leaves no misunderstanding as to what the scripture is saying.
There is NO warning, NO series of events, NO indications that will remotely warn the world as to the soon return of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Their entire argument is presented in an effort to tell you that no one including the church can possibly know when THE RAPTURE occurring on the DAY OF THE LORD is coming. — No signs, no warning. This is very true of the whole world, but are you of the world. I told you this before, but I’m going to repeat it — Paul says of this very DAY that
Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, “ Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 NASB
Sherry, this is all the things (sudden, unexpected, a snare) that fat cow says cause this to be hidden for the world, yet you and I know that it is coming. Why? How can we know? — because we are not blinded to the truth. THE DAY OF THE LORD has signs. Does that not mean that the signs telling of the Lords coming are the same signs for the Rapture.
The last thing I want to deal with with you is your statement about the Matt. 24 rapture being the taking away of the wicked. Not the rapture of the bride. Here is what you said:
“and the rapture of the wicked from off of the earth after the Tribulation (Matthew 13:39, 41, 49; 24:31; 25:31;Revelation 1:7-the wicked are in fear knowing they are about to be removed!) at the 2nd Coming before Christ sits on the Throne of David. Just a side note: I don’t believe the pre-trib rapture is going to be a hidden event.”
Let me just say to you that the pre-Trib rapture is hidden, because no one can even find it in scripture. There is no scripture stating that the Lord will return for us before Tribulation.
So let’s deal with the Judgment of Nations. The sheep an goat Judgment. I assume that you are getting your rapture of the wicked from the fat cow site as well. And I’m not going to make a big deal over that point. In fact, there will be a gathering of the wicked to be cast into the lake of fire. But that is not the gathering that Jesus spoke of in Matt. 24. That gathering is of the elect. It is a Rapture — you have to decide, is it THE RAPTURE. I can’t decide that for you. I can only tell you why I have decided that after much study.
But there is one final error that I want to deal with from fat cows site. The judgment of the nations — they say there is only one question asked of the sheep by the Lord in this Judgment. They do this to try to impress us with their wisdom in figuring out God’s numbering system. They place this Judgment within the ten days of awe. They may be right on this timing? But what really matters here they are wrong about.
So what really matters? They are not judged based on their acceptance of Jesus as fat cow says. Read the passage: they are judge based on what they did for Jesus brethren to help them through the Tribulation. If they had accepted Jesus they would be Jesus brethren and they would be standing in a different place. So who are they? — they are the unsaved nation’s that we will rule over with Christ. And these nations who will enter into the kingdom prepared for them must go up year after year to offer sacrifice in the Temple at Jerusalem because they are still unsaved (Zach 14)
Sherry your fat cow site has a lot of good information, but I would avoid any site including my own if the word of God is being twisted there. You be the judge but please listen to the word when you do it. Jesus is the word, the truth, and the truth shall set us free.
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Sherry, I know that you are a bright young lady. I want you to see my next post on Tribulation Rising. One of the reasons I write these is for people like yourself who are bright, but depending on someone else to dig out truth. If you can read this and then stick with this fellows teachings, then by all means do it. I can only point out what the scripture actually says. Not yet Posted. When Teachers Dogmatically Teach Falsehood You Will Know You Are in Prophetic End Times
The materials I examine in this article are taken mostly from:
http://tribulationrisingcom.fatcow.com/matthew-24-and-the-rapture/
“When Bible prophecy matches modern possibilities you will know the end is near.”
The above is a quote that I picked up from Tribulation Rising. Ironically although this quote is I assume theirs; it really belongs in a post-Tribulation teaching. One cannot look for any evidence or signs to accompany the Rapture and believe it to be pre-Tribulational. What I just stated is not my understanding of scripture, it is theirs. Following is another of their quotes from Tribulation Rising, as are the rest:
“This is critical to understand – most concepts in the Bible are evidenced through the principle of line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little. That is the core concept behind the scriptural references on this site.”
I often remind the reader of this O.T. verse of scripture on my own site. They state here that it is a principle for understanding biblical concepts. I substitute “truths” for their word concept; because biblical truth is necessary to the understanding of the overall plan of God.
They go on from this statement to make a great deal over the misuse of scripture in the formation of a “concept”.
They further support their idea of concept misuses by others with the following:
“Stated differently – if someone declares “truth” to you while failing to provide more than a singular scripture you must ask your self why. “
They further state in the introduction to their site and it’s purpose, that “single verse” doctrines are to be discarded as “unproven doctrine”., and if used are evidence of “false” teaching.
This frankly is good stuff when adhered to. But what I find throughout their site are articles that that prove that their own measure of good doctrine is not adhered to, but that their presented “truth” itself is not truthful. I’m going to share with you a couple of examples of this fact here in this article. I have already written other posts, and possibly will continue to do so concerning this site “Tribulation Rising”. As always I ask you to be the judge of the truthfulness of what I post. What I post is always verifiable.
Next I am going to take their own concepts and reveal to you how they violate their own principles. In their article on Matthew 24, they go into great detail concerning the ordaining of the priesthood which they say is taking place for the first time in Revelation chapters 2-4. Then they state:
“The second time it is convened before the Temple in earth after the tribulation – in the Valley of Decision at the Judgment of Nations.” (THOSE WHO ARE IN THE VALLEY OF DECISION ARE THERE BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD NOT AFTER IT. AND THE JUDGMENT OF NATIONS TAKES PLACE AFTER THE LORD RETURNS) I took notes as I explored their materials. The above is one of those notes. You can see that I was shouting, Why? — I find that when I visit this and other sites like it, that there is so much smoke being blown; that the untruths that they present are camouflaged, and the reader who may not know scripture will think them to be truth.
So, just what is the truth about the timing of “the valley of decision”?
Blow a trumpet in Zion; sound an alarm on my holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming; it is near, Multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining.
Joel 2:1,3:14-15
Perhaps using the phrase “the valley of decision” to them is ok here because to them it is an “unproven doctrine”, but to me and I would hope to you it is biblical truth, even though it is only ever mentioned in one passage in the Bible. So, this time of man being in “the valley of decision” is prior to (during the Tribulation before), the day of the Lord. The “day of the Lord” is another concept that these men do not understand. They so confuse Paul’s teaching on the Rapture as it relates or doesn’t relate to the Day of the Lord, that even the scholars miss the simple, but clear teaching of Paul. Listen to what Tribulation Rising says concerning the Day of The Lord:
For the record – that “day” mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is not the rapture – it is the Day of the Lord. If you doubt me on this I would offer verse 2 as proof.
Let’s read verse 2 and 3.
We will definitely read vs’ 2&3, but we also need to read the verses from Paul’s previous letter concerning the Rapture and this day — the day of the Lord. You should read the entire sections of scripture, but here are excerpts of what Paul wrote:
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
1 Thessalonians 4:17-5:2,4 ESV
(So unlike the world, we do know the times and seasons, and this “Day of The Lord, when Jesus comes as a Thief to Rapture us will not surprise us, for we are not in spiritual darkness. Now with Paul’s teaching as reference, we will consider what Tribulation Rising wants to have us consider:
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
So we have seen that the Day of the Lord is the day of our Rapture. Pre-Trib scholars have taught for decades that Jesus will come for us as a thief in the night. Here we see that that will occur on the day of the Lord, which Paul says is preceded by the apostasy and the coming of Antichrist, whom if you read on in these verses Jesus will destroy at His Coming. That would be at His Coming as a thief on, you guessed it, the day of the Lord.
In fact these same scholars who believe this attempt to place the Tribulation itself into the day of the Lord because of this passage making the Day of the Lord the day of our resurrection and Rapture. Post-Trib scholars in order to refute this 1007 year teaching state that the day of the Lord is 1000 years not 1007. The Tribulation Rising article says that the additional 7 years is only 3 seconds of the day. But they can’t even get that right:
“The day of the Lord, the day of wrath, the day of Christ and the feast days are all such examples of a “day”. All of these events last a mandatory minimum of one day – whether it be the 1,000 year day or the one year day. In the context of the primary distinction of the “day” – the 1,000 year day – the rapture lasts but a fraction of a second. Indeed, the entire time period of the tribulation equates only to about three seconds total of the Day of the Lord.
(So we see that they include the Tribulation in the day of the Lord because the Rapture occurs at the beginning of this day. This is what Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians. But Tribulation Rising teaches it not as the additional or separate 7 years, but as part of the 1000 year day. Obviously this is not true on many fronts. 7 years compared to a 1000 year day is. [.007 of the day]. If a 24 hour day contains 60sec. x 60min. = 3600sec. In an hour X 24hours = 87,840 Sec. In a day X (.007) = 615sec. In a 24 hr Day. 615sec/60sec = 10.24 min. This means the Tribulation is equivalent to 10.24 minutes in a 24 hr day not 3 seconds as they state. No wonder the originator of Tribulation Rising left the field of electrical engineering to write Prophecy articles in the pre-Trib field of study.).
Their entire body of literature I would place in the fiction category. It is full of speculation with lots of support for the Rapture. There will be one. But no Scriptural support, without the twisting of scripture as we have just seen here, for a PreTribulation Rapture.
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