Revelation ch. 7’s 144,000 and The Biblical Understanding

Does Revelation 7 represent the nation Israel’s role which will somehow save those who are to be saved during the upcoming Tribulation as Jeff Kinley describes in his newest book discussed in the podcast that I share below?

Early on in this Olive Tree ministries radio discussion there is a section on the church of Revelation. And there is the question raised concerning saints in Revelation. Kinley here states that sometimes we see the saints in heaven wearing white: that’s going to be the church. And there is a statement made that after Revelation 4:1 the church is always seen in heaven.

Those sealed based on chapter 7 which is highlighted in this interview, are said to be 144,000 sealed from Israel’s 12 tribes, but they also seem to morph into or in some way be aligned with a multitude from every nation, which no man can number all coming out of Great Tribulation. They are in white so are they too considered to be the church?

Revelation 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and [all] tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches [were] in their hands; (NASB1995)

How does this chapter simply contradict the dispensational teachings of Kinley?

The traditional Pre-Trib argument for these who are said to be saved during the Tribulation is that they will constitute the nations to be ruled over by Christ and His bride, and yet here they are surrounding the throne of God and they are obviously said to come out of the great Tribulation.

Kinley in keeping with pre-Trib doctrine must see these as representing those over whom King Jesus and His Church or bride must rule, but this chapter says it differently:

Revelation 7:15 “For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 “They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.” (NASB1995)

This scripture never tells us when any of these were saved, we only know when the 144,000 were sealed and that this sealing may have something to do with this multitude, which is before God’s throne; but what?

Concerning this multitude, we are told that they came out of Great Tribulation; exactly when they were saved is unstated.

The men with Jan Markell in this interview concerning Kinley’s book, state that there is a great revival occurring during Tribulation as saints are being saved on earth, I had even believed that myself, but I have concluded that it really makes not much sense if we are following the context of the Revelation. For in the Revelation end time, the world is more likely seen as it was in the days of both Noah and Lot, Jesus had told us this in His Mount Olivet teaching. During those days before the Flood, and then again before Israel is chosen there was no one who repented, and at this time before Jesus comes which is known as Great Tribulation it is being likened unto those times when there was no repentance. Revelation 6:10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until [the number of] their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also. (NASB1995)

Jan brings up in this interview Rev. 3:10, and the hour of testing for these who dwell upon the earth. This verse above is asking God how long will it be before these who dwell upon the earth are dealt with? The answer to Jan’s question as given by Kinley is that the Tribulation itself is this hour of God’s dealing with these earth dwellers. But God here says differently. He says put on your robes until your brethren who will be killed join you: it will be a while longer.

There is according to our God at this time a completion of something for which possibly God alone is looking. But should we also be looking for it?

It is much more likely when studying scripture as we do: for us to see that this multitude, who came out of this Great Tribulation as a saved multitude had in large measure also entered this Great Tribulation as saved men and women.

What Jesus had taught in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 was a falling away from the faith, with no great revival at this time. What He taught in His message to the Churches in the Revelation was similar: Revelation 2:20 ‘But I have [this] against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit [acts of] immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. (NASB1995)

Remember this: that what is stated unto this one church is meant for all: Revelation 2:29 ‘The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ (NASB2020)

So, we must listen to Jesus word’s here as He continues:

Revelation 2:21 ‘I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. 22 ‘Behold, I will throw her on a bed [of sickness,] and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. (NASB1995)

Does this not mean that there is a purpose even for the Church in this coming Great Tribulation. These are those from among Jesus’ own bond servants to whom Jesus is speaking. They are given by Jesus an ultimatum: repent or experience the harsh reality of Great Tribulation. But wait when you do experience this; then the churches (plural) will see and: Revelation 2:23 ‘And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds. (NASB1995)

If the churches are in such a position to see this occur they are not yet a Raptured Bride. This Bride is to appear when the Church is raptured with the coming of Jesus. Then at that time the Church will be one as the bride of Christ; one body, one new man.

But before that these churches are instructed: Revelation 2:25 ‘Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come. (NASB1995)

Is the sealing of God’s people Israel represented in the 144,000 by the Holy Spirit not also in keeping with His teachings elsewhere in Scripture? Here is what Paul says of the Jews when they come to Christ:

Romans 11:15 For if their [present] rejection [of salvation] is for the reconciliation of the world [to God], what will their acceptance [of salvation] be but [nothing less than] life from the dead? (AMP)

Just what is life from the dead? Is it not Resurrection? When Israel who is represented in these 144,000 will accept their Messiah; then that is the day when we as His bride will look to the Eastern sky for our redemption draweth neigh.

If it were possible to prove a coming of Jesus before this Tribulation; then what Jesus stated to these churches about His servants, who have fallen and about these churches, who are to learn from the punishment of their fallen would all be untrue. Great Tribulation would lose its purpose; for it is the battle ground producing this great multitude. So the truth is that there is no proof of a coming of Jesus before the Great Tribulation.

Revelation 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door [standing] open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like [the sound] of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” (NASB1995)

This verse is the moment taught by dispensationalists of Jesus supposed coming for His bride (His Church) before this Tribulation. Yet we hear nothing in this passage of Jesus coming. But we are told that John, who is caught up, represents the raptured church. But if we give this any credence we must prove this fact. So where is John when he arrives in these next few verses? He is not part of this 24 elder body, which now these folks say is the raptured Church. Instead he is now somehow removed from having represented the Church to being an observer of the happenings there involving the Church. Is this really the Church?

This is no proof of a Raptured Church. If he represents the Church he should not be on the outside as an observer, but an observer, in fact, is just what he is: one called up into heaven just as Paul also had been.

Something else must be twisted in Scripture in order to accept a pre-Trib Rapture. Just how are all of these saved out of the Great Tribulation to be saved apart from being “in Christ”. This is important, because during the Tribulation believers will die for their faith in this same Son of God (Jesus). If they are not “in Christ” how can they be saved?

John 15:5 “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. (NASB1995)

If Tribulation saints, as they are called are not “in Christ” they will burn. If they are “in Christ” and they die as Scripture teaches; then the rapture cannot occur until after their own resurrection from the martyrdom that they are prophesied to endure.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of [the] archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (NASB1995)

There is no getting around this fact: that the dead “in Christ”will arise first. Our truth must come from God not from man. Jesus will come in Chapter 19 to administer God’s wrath upon the earth dwellers. This is the test for them (all who dwell upon the earth). He will grade the test papers of these earth dwellers.

Revelation 2:23 ‘And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds. (NASB1995)

Revelation 19:15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. (NASB1995)

Listen, if you so choose:

Revelation: God’s Grand Finale