My reply to Michael’s Post follows:
In your post you state: “As a general rule the child that is surrounded with the proper Christian influences becomes a devout Christian and lives a life of great service, while the other whose character is formed under the influence of corrupt teaching and example lives in wickedness and dies impenitent. The one is saved and the other is lost. And will anyone deny that the influences favorable to salvation which are brought to bear upon some individuals are far more favorable than those brought to bear upon others? Will it not be admitted by every candid individual that if the persons had changed places, they probably would have changed characters also?”
Michael, what is at stake here is not who we are and what we possess, but can we be saved?Say to them, ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back (change your way of thinking), turn back [in repentance] from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’
Ezekiel 33:11 AMP
I would present to you the best example given in scripture that would disprove your implication. I will get to the example, but first I must state that you and I are a product of our decisions. We choose to follow God’s leading through His Spirit or not. Now would you deny that the Holy Spirit is everywhere as an omnipresence? And if He is present everywhere, for what purpose is He present?
Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Romans 4:4-5 NASB
Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “ Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.”
Romans 4:9 NASB
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Luke 12:48 KJV
As you read Romans 1, God holds man as being accountable even if all he knows is just the creation itself. So you Michael are held to a much greater level of accountability as having lived in America; accepted His word and then having done so become a teacher.
Not many [of you] should become teachers [serving in an official teaching capacity], my brothers and sisters, for you know that we [who are teachers] will be judged by a higher standard [because we have assumed greater accountability and more condemnation if we teach incorrectly].
James 3:1 AMP
Pay close attention to yourself [concentrate on your personal development] and to your teaching; persevere in these things [hold to them], for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16 AMP
Now for the Scriptures example to us which refutes what you say here. In fact, God’s holding us accountable is not based on a general rule.
Now a day before Saul came, the Lord had informed Samuel [of this], saying, “About this time tomorrow I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him as leader over My people Israel; and he will save My people from the hand of the Philistines. For I have looked upon [the distress of] My people, because their cry [for help] has come to Me.”
1 Samuel 9:15-16 AMP
Then Samuel took the flask of oil and poured it on Saul’s head, kissed him, and said, “Has the Lord not anointed you as ruler over His inheritance (Israel)? Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you mightily, and you will prophesy with them, and you will be changed into another man. When these signs come to you, do for yourself whatever the situation requires, for God is with you. Then it happened when Saul turned his back to leave Samuel, God changed his heart; and all those signs came to pass that day. When Saul had finished prophesying, he went to the high place [of worship]. And when Samuel brought all the tribes of Israel near, the tribe of Benjamin was chosen by lot. Then he brought the tribe of Benjamin near by their families, and the family of Matri was chosen by lot. And Saul the son of Kish was chosen by lot; but when they looked for him, he could not be found. So they inquired further of the Lord, “Has the man come here yet?” And the Lord answered, “He is there, hiding himself by the provisions and supplies.”
1 Samuel 10:1,6-7,9,13,20-22 AMP
There is no doubt that Saul was a man chosen of God, given a new heart, and anointed as king. God’s Sovereignty was well displayed in this accounting. We all know the story, including the rest of the story — The facts. It was the decision of the people to ask for a king. God gave them what they asked for, but was He pleased with them? Yet, He did not withhold from Saul, and it was Saul’s decisions that eventually brought about his own demise.
Does God predestine men and situations in order to bring about the things He says through the prophets, including the consummation of this age? — absolutely. Is He sovereign? — absolutely. Has He given man freedom to choose? — choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.
Pay close attention to yourself [concentrate on your personal development] and to your teaching; persevere in these things [hold to them], for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16 AMPI encourage you to go and see what Michael says. You should know the argument in full. For you must make up your own mind concerning Predestination vs free will inside of God’s Sovereignty.
THE ‘DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION’ AND GOD AS A ‘RESPECTER OF PERSONS’
A “respecter of persons” is one who, acting as judge, does not treat those who come before him according to their character, but who withholds from some what is justly theirs and gives to others what is not justly theirs – one who is governed by prejudice and sinister motives, rather than by justice and law. The Scriptures deny that God is the respecter of persons in this sense; and if the doctrine of Predestination represented God as doing these things, we admit that it would charge Him with injustice.
In the Scriptures God is said to be no respecter of persons, for He does not choose one and reject another because of outward circumstances such as race, nationality, wealth, power, nobility, etc. When the Scriptures say that God is no respecter of persons THEY DO NOT MEAN
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I can’t help but think that this post is Michael’s answer to me even though he did not answer here.
“CHOOSE YE THIS DAY WHOM YE WILL SERVE” DOES NOT NEGATE THE BONDAGE OF THE HUMAN WILL GOD-WARD
Michael Jeshurun
When Joshua said, “choose you this day whom ye will serve” he was not informing the people that they had a ‘free will choice’ to choose between the true God of the Bible and the false gods of the heathen, but rather the choice was between two sets of false gods – you have to read the scripture correctly and not make false assumptions – “choose you this day whom ye will serve; WHETHER THE GODS WHICH YOUR FATHERS SERVED THAT WERE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FLOOD, or THE GODS OF THE AMORITES, IN WHOSE LAND YE DWELL” [Josh 24:15]
As far as their ability to either choose or serve the God of the Bible, he bluntly tells them – “Ye CANNOT serve the LORD!” [Josh 24:19]
But some DO love and serve Him. How come? The man who almost single-handedly loved and served God the most tells us how come– “I laboured more abundantly than they all: YET NOT I, BUT THE GRACE OF GOD WHICH WAS WITH ME.” [1Cor 15:10]
But to return, why is that men in general cannot choose God or serve Him? Get this – It is because fallen man comes into the world as a sworn enemy of the God of scripture! The Apostle affirms, “there is NONE that seeketh after God!” Period! Oh yes they may love a ‘god’ of their own making and their own imaginations, but the Sovereign discriminating God of Scripture who hath mercy on whom He will and hardens whom He will, men hate with a passion! Their unified cry against THIS God is – “We will not have THIS MAN to reign over us!” [Luke 19:14]
Since I believe this to be Michael’s comment or response to me, I will answer it as a reply to him. Just be patient.
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So is Michael correct? Michael took 2 versesfrom Joshua 24 to draw his conclusion, I will list for you here the pertinent verses:
Then Joshua gathered all the tribes of Israel to Shechem, and called for the elders of Israel and for their heads and their judges and their officers; and they presented themselves before God. Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘From ancient times your fathers lived beyond the River, namely , Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, and they served other gods. Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River, and led him through all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his descendants and gave him Isaac. You crossed the Jordan and came to Jericho; and the citizens of Jericho fought against you, and the Amorite and the Perizzite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Girgashite, the Hivite and the Jebusite. Thus I gave them into your hand. “Now, therefore, fear the Lord and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord .” The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the Lord to serve other gods; for the Lord our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the Lord, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins. If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” The people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the Lord.” Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the Lord, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” “Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel.” The people said to Joshua, “We will serve the Lord our God and we will obey His voice.” Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be for a witness against us, for it has heard all the words of the Lord which He spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.” Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance.
Joshua 24:1-3,11,14-17,19-24,27-28 NASB
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Michael was correct about one thing, no man can serve God in their own strength. You and I must take the faith that God provides through the hearing of His word and place that faith in Him to change us and to sustain us in our walk with Him. May God bless you as you study.
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I disagree with predestination – and the “rule” that those raised Christian get saved & those raised as unbelievers don’t. Aleister Crowley was raised Christian. And there are plenty of believers who were raised unbelievers, and accepted Him later.
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Thanks, J-M, God didn’t always make things simple in scripture. The teaching of predestination is real, but it is not simple. We don’t like to dig for truth, but to find it it must be mined from the scriptures, just as you are doing. Appreciate you brother.
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Thanks. Yeah, we certainly have to dig at times!
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Seems to be necessary
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