Why was not Christ’s return imminent when the Apostles were alive, even though some of their writings seemed to point in that direction? We need only consider that Peter and Paul both knew and expected their own death before the Second Coming.
So when the Scriptures were canonized would Christ’s Coming then not be Imminent?
At that time the Antichrist could not be seated in the Temple, though Peter had said even when he was alive that there were many antichrists. Still there was no Temple. So how many years was the Temple known as Herod’s involved in its completion?
“The construction of all this work occupied, according to John ii. 20, forty-six years; in reality, however, it was not completed until the procuratorship of Albinus (62-64 C. E.), more than eighty years after its commencement.” -1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.
So for the Rapture to come Imminently in those days allowing 7 years for an Antichrist system it was then impossible for it to be imminent.
So what is the pre-Trib answer for this. One is that our Lords return has always been imminent, and no matter when it occurred the world would have continued right down to this time and all that is occurring today without a hitch. This is a Grant Jeffrey quote, God rest his soul. But obviously with that as a reality He may have already returned in the dark ages and we would then not be His bride. And actually then we would be slated for the Tribulation.
So what about today? Is His coming Imminent today? Israel is back in the land, and the Temple instruments are already made or created just awaiting the Temple. The technology to build will allow it to be constructed in a matter of 1 to 2 years. So surely the Lords Coming is imminent. So now we are at the meat of the question on imminence. Can the Second Coming be imminent today? The answer of course is if it can be proven from scripture that there are two Second Coming’s. Even though men constantly say that Scripture teaches this they cannot give us chapter and verse. The arguments that they use are all discussed on different posts that are on this site. The Biggest argument is Israel herself. That she being back in the land means that Jesus is coming to fulfill the promises made to her.
In fact this is true. He is coming soon, but not until after she is added back to the Olive tree into which we were ourselves ingrafted. So the problem’s for a Rapture now position are that several things must be overcome in scripture in order to separate out the Gentile church from the Jewish believer, who we are now one with. You see the Jewish Remnant was the church as well as a part of the nation before Pentecost. Hebrews speaks of the church in the wilderness. The ekklesia in Old Testament scripture spoke of them. On the day of Pentecost there were added to the church about 3000 souls.
So what is or are the problems?
First, and foremost we are now one with Israel we now belong to her commonwealth complete with a signed title to her covenants (Ephesians chapter 2) and promises. Peter says that we are a holy Nation and a royal Priesthood. The very same thing that God had promised Israel.
Second, the Jews were and are in the Olive tree before we were added. Only some of them, the unbelievers, were cut off. The rest the Remnant remained. And we were ingrafted. The only way out of this tree is through unbelief. And the tree awaits the addition of the Jewish nation following the time of her purging — the time of Jacobs trouble. The only way in is through belief. Paul says in Ephesians that that belief has made us one with the saints. So we are one in the same nation and tree with Israel. We have not replaced them we are grafted in with them. We will be here to see the final addition to that nation.
There are many other reasons written about here on this site that will refute a two part Second Coming.
I promised to inform you of when the second coming becomes imminent. The answer is when we begin to see the signs of the second coming listed in Matthew 24 we can then lift our heads and watch for our redemption draweth neigh. But not until Armageddon prepares Israel for salvation will the sky be darkened this is the final sign before the actual sign of His appearing. And this all following the Tribulation of those days. And then the sign of the Sun of Man shall appear.
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30 NASB
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 NASB
Brethren what we are to look for is not His coming, not until we see the signs of His coming. This is why John said even so come Lord Jesus. Even so what? He had just told us of all that would happen before His coming, and still we must say “even so come Lord Jesus”. The man who is not willing to suffer and even die for christ is living dangerously.
Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.
Matthew 16:24-27 NASB
Jerry, I left a comment at another blog with a suggestion that you be invited to give your view of the Rapture:
Showing Ourselves Approved | Study to Show Thyself Approved by God (blogger Christian)
https://soappsite.wordpress.com/2018/08/08/lets-have-a-real-conversation-about-the-rapture/comment-page-1/#comment-90
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Thanks, I appreciate that.
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great!
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The comment may still be in moderation.
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Thanks, I left one, it’s in moderation. I’ll give you credit if you like.
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No credit necessary, Jerry. One question I have is whether people can manage to listen to others’ views. It’s tough for all of us but as you maintain, we must try. This blogger also believes it’s worth it, especially before a watching world.
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Amen sister, we really are to represent Jesus to them. You do really well with this stuff.
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Amen!
Oh, wow! Tx! The Lord is my sanctification! Teaching me and all of is how to walk.
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Hi, Jerry, I wasn’t on when you and Maria left the comments. They are approve and thanks to Maria I was able to find your site. I wish I knew how just to let all the comments be approved and then delete any that are mean. I am not very web insightful. I barely got a “blog” I still just call it my website. I don’t do facebook or smart phones, back in the 2003 or so my first DVD player was a Christmas gift if that gives you hint about me. I loved your comment and have left you a reply. Hopefully now that you have one comment approved it will just approve any comment that you make. God Bless you, Brother and I will try to navigate your site a little as well.
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Thanks, the moderation process is not understood by me either. I think I set mine up with no moderation. It bothers me when believers block other believers because they disagree with content. Why not use the content that you don’t agree with as a teaching opportunity when you think that you have everything figured out? But again I appreciate you doing this brother. Hopefully it will serve God’s purpose of bringing us all together.
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I so agree, Jerry. Actually I just feel blessed to be used by the Lord even when in small ways. I will try to do that. I replied to Sherry this morning not realizing I needed to approve first and it sent it to spam so I had get it back. Not real internet savvy but learning a little. Hey, thanks for being apart of this and may God use all comments here for His Glory!!!
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Amen brother, there are some real thinkers on here already. I follow bibleguy, Maria, and Sherry. Good folks. Thanks Maria for putting me on to this site. We need to pray for each other that the Lord will us as a Cath list in this small way to His unity. Thanks again Christian for the site.
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Yes, I am so thankful for all who have joined. People who want to talk and think and pray. We can help each other and encourage one another. We all need that, and sleep well at night knowing that we Glorified our Lord with our words. Maybe someone will read something someone has said and it will help when they have someone question them.
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So right brother. Each one of us is being led by the same Holy Spirit into eventually all truth.
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I have thought about the rapture, maybe the Lord allows us to continue this debate just so no one knows the day or the hour. I just don’t think being hurtful to others is glorifying to Him.
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Interesting, no one knows the day or the hour. The first day of the month of Tishri on the Jewish calendar which is also the first day of their new year is known as “the day that no one knows the day or the hour”. The reason is that it’s coming relies on the first citing of the New 🌙 moon. Back in Jesus day the Hi Priest has to have 2 reports of the siting then the trumpet would Be blown. This would be the start of the Jewish new year or Rosh Hashanah. And would also be the first of the fall Feasts that it is believed Jesus will fulfill with His Second Coming. I’m sure that you and others already know this and certainly feel free to add something that I may have missed.
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Actually, I am just learning all this kind of stuff. Any of this would maybe be helpful to all us newbies to the faith… Hey we are only 4 years old around here. We are growing daily!!
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I wish I’d had something like this back in the day. But God does have everything under control.
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Amen to that, Brother, I think back to my whole life and my early Christian walk and I had such a spirit of fear. The Lord in His own way has delivered me from that. I am so truly blessed, even when I go through trials and tribulations in my life He is with me and uses it to grow me in Him. Praise the Lord each and everyday. I live only to glorify Him.
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Good goal brother. Where is bibleguy? We need him back. You know he stated that 90% of believers were in the pre-Trib camp. I don’t think it’s quite that high but does that make it correct. It makes it easier for them to ignore another view, but in my thinking that’s not good. That is kinda what is happening in the US media today. The liberal view is all that gets presented to the masses. I have tried to get my book reviewed by Jan Merkel, and Terry James, but Jan says she can’t confuse her listeners. I love the woman. She does so much good, and some of what she presents I totally agree with her on, but no consideration, no interest in why I believe post Tribe en when I’m raised pre-Trib?? I want to be challenged. That’s how I learn.
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Jerry, I disturbed Bibleguy by commenting at his blog that I couldn’t finish watching a Gary Stearman/Billy Crone video because Billy Crone said that to believe in another view than Pre-Tribulation Rapture is blasphemous. Another blogger, Crissy, helped me to understand Crone’s reasoning.
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Try inviting him back. We’ll pray with you.
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I’ll ask, brother.
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Hi, Maria, I like Billy Crone, but in that video he seems the reason I tried to start this conversation. Bibleguy doesn’t want anyone to disagree with the pre-trib rapture. My prayers for him will be that if it’s not then may the Lord protect him from falling away. He seems to get angry with anyone who disagrees. Pray for him and try to understand that he can’t handle opposition from much of anyone.
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Yes, Christian, I’ve seen that he is disturbed when others question the timing of the Rapture. You are right to ask prayer for him and others whose faith could be unsettled. I’m hoping to comment soon at your blog in the conversation there.
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Thanks for the encouragement, Sister
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Me, too, I know Jan would actually be my first choice on Pre-Trib debate. When I contact her in praise she responds, when I contact her with questions, legitimate questions no meanness she doesn’t respond. I will continue to listen to her cause, I love her too.
I don’t know where bibleguy is. I think I offended him yesterday. I didn’t mean to. He is so pre-trib that I thought he could answer some questions that I know other people have, but he doesn’t like debating and I didn’t know that. I didn’t mean to offend I just wanted people to know that this was really to be an open floor for all.
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I think the problem with the pre Trib school centers on a lack of clear Scriptural support. They use types and argument over word meanings. Eg apostasy meaning Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2. The case without challenge can sound very convincing. Problem is if they are wrong and if we are very near the Tribulation as both they and I believe, then weaker Christians will be challenged in other of their beliefs once peace comes in the Middle East with no Rapture.
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See that was the point I was trying to make before starting this post. I worry about the souls that are not strong enough IF the pre-trib view is not correct. I am not saying I know everything because I assure all who are here I have so much to learn. It was the Left Behind series that even started this journey for me and my spouse.
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I bit my teeth with studying prophecy with Hal Lindsay’s the late Great planet earth. I also started questioning what I had been taught there. I thought His Rapture Scriptures were weak.
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As I have said, I have yet to read it, although, I did find it second hand and have a copy and I will try to find time to read it. I try to look at all views and not be too judgmental. I was raised with a lot of wrong beliefs and if not for the Lord (Holy Spirit) guiding me then I would not be where I am today in my faith. So I am grateful for the patients the Lord has shown with me, and I try to show that to other brothers and sisters.
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That is commendable. I do find it somewhat a contradiction to have so many views on not just this, but it seems almost every Doctrine. The answer would seem to be a coming together and a meeting of the minds, but each side takes the view that it alone is biblical truth, and we are to avoid false prophets. And so the stage is set. What you attempted to start here would seem the Christian thing to do Christian, but some will not even discuss, most of those of the more popular belief will block you and call you argumentative when you bring up scriptures which contradict their view. If one can’t answer objections to ones position then the position is most likely to some degree wrong.
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Thanks, Jerry. I do not take any credit. I think I was just led by the Holy Spirit. As I felt grieved in my spirit and prayed to the Lord about some of the hurtful awful things I saw “Christians” writing I asked the how could this be? How could people who are suppose to love one another say such horrible things? I just felt like the Lord spoke and said show them. I just try to live my life that I want to show God’s love to all, even the ones that may be not so nice. I get why unsaved people do not know how to really love, but I can’t for the life of me understand how a child of God can be not so nice. Thank you for all that you have contributed to the idea of coming together. I am so very thankful that you took the time to share with us. You are a blessed brother that I am thankful that I will meet on the other side!
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Amen brother, looking forward to that day. Hopefully more will respond to this post.
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Not only that but kind of in a left behind way, I hope that whatever this post does for us in this day, that for those going through the Tribulation that are unsaved if they read any part of the comments that someone will come to a saving faith, because we (all of us) took the time to disagree about something and were able to do it in a loving manner.
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That’s a good thought. Certainly some will be finding truth, even though others are rejecting it and falling away. Being hungry for truth seems to be a prerequisite for God finding us.
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Jerry, you said, “Eg apostasy meaning Rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2.” I know you were just giving an example, but I just want to say that I’ve never encountered a Pre-Tribulation believer who says the apostasy is the Rapture. I have heard of this though.
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It’s actually being taught on u-Tube, and in prophecy seminars. I wrote a post some time ago on it I’ll try to post it here. But I’m late for hard crab dinner right now.
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okay, Jerry! Thanks!
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You know we really would be foolish if we did not want to be Raptured before Tribulation. So this is to me not a want to issue. It about what scripture says.
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Actually as foolish as it sounds we have prayed to the Lord that if the rapture does come before that since we have lived so long without serving Him, if we could serve Him by being left and it be His will we will stay to reach others.
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Man, now that’s what I call commitment
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Yes! Like Paul’s heart for his fellow Jews.
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Amen
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Hey, Jerry, did you say you have a book? I have had an idea for a book for a while but one I am not smart enough to figure out publishing and as you can tell from my post not much of a writer. Just a thought of giving you my idea. So my idea is title “Let’s agree to disagree” and much like what we are doing now, except putting points in about all three rapture beliefs, similar to the article only more in depth and explaining that this is not a salvation issue. We can agree to disagree still be saved and be raptured all at the same time.
What’cha think?
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Tell you what. I’d give you permission to quote as much as you like from the book on the post T perspective, all you need do is get two book authors to do the same. Give each one credit and they would probably even be willing to go through and boil down their argument. I know I would. Then if it becomes popular, you could set up the debate that you spoke of. And that would be neat.
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Well that’s kind of crazy. I like it!!!
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Michael Snyder might do the Mid-Trib. This might get you to Him. https://amzn.to/2Lde1XM. The problem would be pre-Trib I think.
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Your right brother being hurtful I’m sure does not cut it with our Lord.
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YW, Jerry!
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Jerry, you seem wiser and older (in Faith) then I, may I ask you a question? Why when you talk to anyone who is pre-trib and another pre-trib person makes a reference to like Joseph other pre-tribbers go oh I never thought of that but that’s good, someone who believes in mid-trib uses Job, and pre-tribbers say you can’t do that? How does that work?
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It has to be of the mindset that “we can’t be wrong”. I used to think that it was blasphemy to question the teachers or even the scriptures based on something else I had read in scripture; but then there became so many scriptures that spoke to me something other than what I was being taught, that I had to pursue it, after all it was bible.
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Thanks, Jerry! I will pray for them. I am of the belief, a lot of people who believe in the pre-trib rapture, the great falling away the Word speaks of will be these folks if it doesn’t happen that way. I am thankful that I have met all of you and will add each of you to my prayer list. I have been recalled to work starting Wednesday, after a two and half week lay-off. As Bibleguy knows this takes me away from home a lot and I am unable to write much or respond as I do not have a smart phone or the like. My oh my, how the Lord has blessed me to use this time to get to know some fellow believers though, no matter what their Rapture beliefs.
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Keep in touch.
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I will at times when I am home if not too busy. Thanks for everything. God Bless you, Jerry.
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We’ll pray for you and yours
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