I will accept any offer of wisdom that you may have. You can be my brother and mentor in Christ or you can choose to join Stephen as my Nemesis. What I have shared here is recorded in the comments section of this already posted article:
https://raptureonline.blog/2023/06/12/viewing-gods-love-from-his-son-what-then-should-we-expect/
I’m posting this here, because most of the readers miss the comments when they come later, or even when they come in other vehicles for comment: eg. E-mail, instant message, or text. You may read all of Stephens comments and my replies attached to the above post or begin here:
Stephen Says:
You trying to tell me that Jesus is the bible?
1. In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God.
2.. The Bible was with God in the beginning.
3. Through the bible all things were made; without bible nothing was made that has been made.
4. In the bible was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
5. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome a it.
You make no sense Jerry.
Jesus IS the Word of God, the bible is a book written and compiled by men.
Most of the “understandings” of hell come from Dantes inferno.
Stephen, you are correct the word of God is more than the Bible, but you cannot even begin to know Jesus without knowing this book. He is the Word who came to men and spoke to them straight from God in the Old, and He is The word of God made flesh who came and fulfilled every prophecy that He had spoken of Himself in the Old Testament, and yes even quoted from it. Then He gave us His Holy Spirit, who inspired His chosen Apostles to write all that they did concerning Him and what you need to know of Him, because you were not there with Him to learn of Him.
Your claim to possess the Holy Spirit and thus to know Jesus and His desires for you only strengthens the value of Scripture to the believer, because He inspired those men to write what they had seen and heard. Any Spirit could speak to you including the deceiver and you would have no basis upon which to test the words of that spirit, because you do not believe the Word of God, which Word Jesus is. And yes He has more words to tell us, but you will never know if they be true, because you have not believed His only written Word to you. You only show what you do not know of God when you speak of hell’s origin. Jesus speaks more of hell, than any other in His own words quoted by His chosen apostles for the purpose of making you and me His disciples. If you wish to not be deceived in these last days then you must study to show yourself approved. If you only want to read and believe in the red letter words in the gospels and the Revelation; then think on these Words in red: Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (KJV)
(Hope you will forgive my spelling errors in the actual comments. I tried to clean them up here.)
◦ Bob, I’m sharing this mainly to inquire of you specifically, to see if you would agree or not; that speaking the truth to Stephen is important here, even though he may take what I say as being unloving? Stephen is, as are we all, a professing believer in Jesus. But he obviously denies the Bible as being ligit. So what are your recommendations to Stephen and to me? Stephen regularly comments here publicly, so I’m not revealing anything that he has not already done. You need not share your comments here, but then Stephen will not see them.
And Then Messiah Shall Come 
Jerry, I’m not sure why you want me to comment on your 6/12 posting and the exchange between you and Stephen but I’ll offer a few thoughts. Stephen made one comment that I fully embrace: ” I’m not interested in persuading people to believe as I do, but to put peoples hand into the hand of Jesus Christ.” I believe that is what we are called to do. We are to meet people at the point of their need, demonstrate God’s love (not judgment) in offering any help they need (Matthew 25: 31-46), introduce them to Jesus, and allow the Holy Spirit to work on their hearts. I have a real problem with how some Christians are handling the “culture wars.” Many lead from judgment in contradiction to Jesus’ command in Matthew 7:1-5. In spite of His admonition, many Christians don’t hesitate to judge and condemn people for sins that are different from their own, especially LGBTQ+ people. Why do we think other’s sins are so much worse than our’s? That is self righteousness and it seems to be way more common among conservative Christians than non-Christians. In doing research for another (private) exchange you and I are having, I’m rereading the encounters Jesus had with people as recorded in the gospel. He almost never mentions their sinfulness. Instead, He offers them healing and “living water.”
While I believe that scripture is inspired by God, I also believe that we must be careful about which parts we give emphasis to and which we parts we live by. I agree that the example of Jesus–how he treated others and what he spoke about most is more instructive than the minutia of the Mosaic law. In fact, I believe his “Great Commandment” is more important than all of the Mosaic law. I wondered which topics Jesus spoke most about so, of course I did a google search. Turns out he spoke about God 376 times, heaven 273 times, hell 172 times, and sin only 32 times.
When it comes to interpreting scripture, as a longtime Methodist, I adhere to the Wesleyan quadrilateral. Our belief system is informed by scripture, reason, tradition, and experience. Scripture is paramount, of course, but we need to use all four to provide proper context to the words of the Bible. the Bible is legit, as you say, but it must be put in context. I agree with Stephen that the life of Jesus, as described in the gospels, is the most important part of the Bible and deserves out most intense focus.
As I’ve told you numerous times, I try to follow the example of Jesus in how I treat others and live out my faith. My “scorecard” is how well I demonstrate the Fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-26). I have lots more progress to make but I delight in God’s unconditional love for me.
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Bob, just read Stephen’s replies to me on the original post. They are still going on there. I wanted you to view this and comment because Steven says that he does believe in Jesus already, and does refuse the scriptures as being ligit. I want you to be able to love him into the truth.
Stephen probably like you believes my use of pointing out sin to be judgmental and in a sense hateful. So let me just ask: if Stephen is not able to see his rejection of Scripture as being a problem, which subjects him to misunderstandings and even to deception from the enemy (Satan); then are we not to point out how scripture is there to aid him, and that deception is a real problem without the scripture? — That our discernment would be impossible without the scripture? This what I try to do.
And I also wanted you involved because, you often tell me that we should not point out the sin of the LGBTQ, (or at least you imply such). Yet, these folks just like Stephen do not believe that they are wrong before God. They in fact, believe that their sin is no sin but instead an action approved by God. if someone does not point this out to them, how can they then find peace with God? If they do find it out and find forgiveness before God, well they not then understand that my pointing it out was actually because I love them?
Jesus told the women caught in adultery that she should go and sin no more. So, was Jesus telling her that He was forgiving her sin if she did not recognize her sin, and with His help turn away from it? He Forgave it expecting repentance, which is a turning away from it as He implied. But she, in this scripture, never did what the LGBTQ community does by not accepting, their own actions as being sin before God.
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I never said the bible wasn’t legit. I know it upsets you Jerry that I worship God instead of the bible..
You’re free to worship the bible if you want.
People love the bible cause unlike Christ, it doesn’t have a mouth to speak.
Bob, I appreciate the fact that you understand most of my point.
Your graciousness in allowing me my walk without condemning me to hell or judging my salvation is also appreciated.
Continued blessings to the both of you.
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Ok, I apologize. I misspoke, tell me then that you believe that the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit and is intended as Paul says to Timothy
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (KJV)
This is then your understanding? For if it is, I have totally misunderstood your points?
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The bible didn’t exist when Paul wrote that.
Timothy was a jew of which I’m not.
Now show me where Jesus said that.
Last I heard, Paul was still in the grave so it leads me to believe that Jesus is the Christ.
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So Stephen, are you then saying that you accept the Torah, and the Septuagint as scripture but not Paul’s writings?
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What I’m saying is you seem to have no wisdom Jerry and act like a self entitled spoiled child.
Actually, more like an infant.
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Jerry, are you asking me to “love” Stephen into truth because you aren’t able to do that? I don’t know that I can love anyone into truth. I don’t have a monopoly on truth, and I suspect that I’m wrong about much of what I believe. God’s “truths” are far beyond my ability to understand them. I have noticed that you seem to misinterpret what those of us who disagree with your version of the truth say. For example, I’ve said that we should not “JUDGE” LGBTQ+ people or others (Matthew 7:1-5). The sin of gays is no worse than my sins. I often feel justified and moral in some of my sins, something I think is common with all of us. I also explained that many of us consider the sins of others to be much worse than our sin, simply because they sin differently than we do.
Many of us express our judgment hatefully and Stephen thinks you fall into that category—I don’t know your motivation but if I were gay, I would probably agree with Stephen’s assessment based on what you write in your blog. Sin is sin in God’s eyes. When non-believer call us out for our self-righteousness, I think they rightfully do so. I think selfishness and self-righteousness are the most common sins of believers and they really damage our witness. I need to worry about my own sin and love others as Jesus commanded us.
Concerning the woman caught in adultery, Jesus asked her after all her accusers left, “Where are they. Does no one condemn you?” She said, “No one, Lord” to which he responded, “I do not condemn you either. Go and [make better choices in the future]” ( paraphrase mine). She did not repent and ask for forgiveness before he said “I do not condemn you.” I think the main point of this encounter was to tell her accusers (and us) that we have no right to judge others because of their sin, not that he told her to “go and sin no more.”
You justify your pointing out sin in others because you “love them.” Well, I suggest that it doesn’t come across to them as loving and you might be better off focusing on your own sin rather than the sins of others (Matthew 7:1-5). Stephen and I both described our objective when encountering others. I’ll repeat my approach: Meet them at the point of their need, show them God’s love in tangible ways, “put their hand in the hand of Jesus,” and allow the Holy Spirit (not me identifying their specific sins) to work on their hearts. I might suggest they read the Bible, which would allow them to reflect on their lifestyle.
I think Tim Keller gave one of the best descriptions of the gospel, which I reflect on daily: “The gospel is that I am so sinful that Jesus had to die for me, yet so loved and valued that Jesus was glad to die for me. This leads to deep humility and deep confidence at the same time. I can’t feel superior to anyone and yet I have nothing to prove to anyone.”
I also explained my view of scripture. It is inspired but not necessarily inerrant, especially given the time and context in which it was written. My guess is that you don’t follow the food requirements in the Old Testament that Orthodox Jews adhere to.
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We keep talking around the main point Bob. Yes the fact is we are both sinners, and we both admit that, pray for forgiveness for that, but LGBTQ DOES NOT BELIEVE GOD OR THE BIBLE CONCERNING THEIR SINFULNESS AND IN FACT WANT TO TURN YOUR AND MY GRAND AND GREAT GRAND CHILDREN INTO TRANS ETC. Our ignoring this is not going to grant them or us God’’s favor.
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I disagree with your characterization of the main point. LGBTQ people are guaranteed the right to live by their values. The 1st amendment protects their freedom to embrace any religion they want to or no religion at all. Our laws protect their right to be gay. We don’t live in a theocracy. As Christians, we are dedicated to living out the values described in the Bible, but we are to love non-believers, including LGBTQ people, and not judge them. What don’t you understand about and why do you ignore Matthew 7:1-5? Your claim that they want to “convert” our grand and great-grandchildren to their lifestyle is way overblown and there is no greater influence on those kids than their families. Great harm has been done to kids by their families and the church, those who are traumatized when they “come out of the closet” and are disowned by their family or expelled from their church.
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Bob we are in this world but not of it so far as our directive from God is concerned. We were created free Will agents, but we were not given the directive to sin and take for granted God’s Grace. It’s quite easy to take scripture out of context and become our own gods. They not only want to they had been doing their thing with our kids until they outsmarted themselves with the school shutdowns and parents got a feel for what their children were actually being taught. Twenty years ago you hardly knew what Trans gender meant. Today just since 2012 the LGBTQ trans population has doubled from about 3.6% to 7.2%. Obviously most of that increase is in the young. And that number has basically flatlined since 2021, as I said because parents are awakening. And great harm is done by families because God has been surgically removed from schools and families over our lifetimes. Don’t try and blame conservative believers for that, because there are many many more liberal Christian’s today than when we were kids. And many fewer Christians in total percentage wise.
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Jerry, you lump everyone in the LGBTQ community into a demonic group. Over the years, I’ve known and worked with both gay and transgender people. I’ve never had a problem with any of them. As part of Pride month, our new community in Maryland is sponsoring a number of events. We just returned from a concert given by a diverse group of people singing Stephen Sondheim favorites. The group has performed for 38 years. It was wonderful. There’s a fairly large contingent of gay people living here as well and they have an active group that meets monthly.
Unlike your experience (but maybe you don’t know anyone in the LGBTQ community), I have found them to be, without exception, delightful, engaging, accepting, and talented people. I’ve never had any of them try to “recruit” me or anyone in my family to their lifestyle. They simply want to live their authentic life. They are all made in the image of God, who we as Christ followers are called to love. Your apparent hatred of them is sad and unbecoming to a follower of Jesus.
BTW, there are many fewer Christians today than there were years ago and mainline denominations are closing many of their churches. I think that’s because many young people today view churches as places of judgment and hatred, not acceptance and love. I think that saddens Jesus.
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I’ve never hated anyone of the LBGTQ community. Worked with some gays. Now know a few.
But it concerns me that you have no evidence for your accusations. You obviously are committed to your views and your position. And positioning yourself totally against what I had hoped, you present as one who would sooner stand with someone who denies scripture as being God’s word and with someone who believes that gay rights are more important than parents rights, or a child’s rights.
I’m not saying that I can’t and don’t sin, but what you accuse me of is not one of them. I love these people enough to tell them straight up what God’s word says about their sin and I get called a hater for doing it. In fact my government may actually come and arrest me one day for doing it, because they have labeled us conservative Christians as a part of a terrorist hate group. You seem to completely agree with them. But my own salvation is on the line, so I must love my fellow man including you and Stephen while speaking the truth of Scripture in that love.
But can’t really blame you for separating yourself from us conservative Christians.
Thanks for coming in and stating your honest opinion to me and the reader. I really believe that our words are important to our Lord.
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I’m curious. Since you know and have worked with some, how many LGBTQ people have you confronted directly with their sin and how was it received by them? Are you not failing in your “duty” as a Christian if you fail to personally confront, rather than simply writing hateful missives, any LGBTQ people you meet about their need to repent? Did any of them acknowledge that you spoke from a place of love for them personally, acknowledge their sin, change their behavior, ask God for forgiveness, and accept Christ as their Lord and Savior? I’d really like to know how well your approach works as an approach to evangelism.
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First of all I know of no one who confronts personally anyone with their personal sin unless they are first approached for counseling. In fact most of us don’t know one another’s personal sin unless it is shared as a personal testimony. Or unless it is flaunted before us unashamedly. Back in the 80’s you heard almost nothing of Lesbians, and Gay was just being coined for those men coming out of the closet.
Over time I have known personally no gay females. The one homosexual who worked in my division was private and was treated with respect. I frankly didn’t socialize with any of the managers in my Division other than work events that is with any of those who reported to me. And I would not have confronted any of them homosexual or otherwise with their sin unless it would have been something flagrant and effecting job performance. Sins are for most people personal and between us and God. Sins are basically only pointed out as being offensive to God in the scriptures and in pastors sermons, unless that is they are so flagrant and obvious to others that God sends His prophet to confront an individual such as David with Bathsheba. I have never been so commissioned in confronting anyone’s personal sin. But I have been commissioned as a teacher and an author to take a stand for the truth of Gods word as did Paul here:
1 Timothy 1:9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
1 Timothy 1:10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, (NASB1995)
There are Homosexuals who admit that this is truth and admit that they struggle with this sins temptation just as we all have certain struggles with temptation from time to time. Those who refuse to admit that this is truth are attempting to and in fact are changing our society and it’s laws. They are successful thus far in making the Christian pastor and his followers who would dare to point out this verse as being God’s word to be the haters in our society. What they are successful in achieving, some of us are standing up against. If by so doing someone would come my way or the Holy Spirit should send someone my way I would certainly spend time with that one in order that they might understand why God hates all sin, mine and theirs. He hated it so much and loved us so much that He sent His only begotten Son to die for your sin and mine, and He is willing to heal you as He has me if you confess your sin:
James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. (NASB1995)
These verses I would present to him and pray with him after giving him testimony of my own healing. Right now this blog is the only ministry that I have been presented, although I did just buy two books to present to two atheist friends here in the park where we live. You might want to pray with me about success in that endeavor.
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Thank God!! I was afraid that Stephen and I would need to change our approach to evangelism. How would you respond if a gay person happened to read your blog, unlikely as that would be, and called you out for your hateful speech? Have you thought about the fact that your rhetoric enables and justifies the type of response Stephen made? He is simply calling out your sin . . . and you failed to acknowledge it, much less repent of it. In fact you became defensive and attacked him—which looks like a Roy Cohn strategy. I believe most of us are blind to our own “worst” sins and will go to battle against anyone who points them out.
I will certainly pray for God to honor your evangelistic outreach with your atheist neighbors.
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It always interests me how you revert to exactly what you accuse me of doing when you point out what you believe to be my sin. If pointing out to the homosexual community that their actions are sin punishable by God is a sin; then yes I will confess to that sin, and ask God to forgive me of my approach which may at times seem unloving, but you are not to judge me so you say. If Stephen is Homosexual or has Homosexual friends I hope that he will take to heart what I wrote above and introduce them to the Jesus of the Scripture and not one of his own making even as Paul warned the Galatians of his concern for them for creating another Jesus, and another gospel. Paul stated:
Galatians 1:10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. (NASB1995)
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Bob praying for your g-Tube surgery. Wisdom for the Drs on the site.
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By the way here is an example of what another Jesus looks like:
https://thelastpatriotnews.com/pastor-says-what-about-god-video/
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