In SOTERIOLOGY we study salvation. In this post I’m going to examine the opening thoughts of one man’s teaching on this subject in opposition to a free will approach to salvation. He is teaching from a predestined understanding. And you by your comments and questions will determine where we go from here. I will do what I normally do by looking at statements and then questioning or commenting on them. In this post I’m just dealing with the first two paragraphs of his recent post. At this point I couldn’t get past his opening questions.
“The ‘million dollar question’ before us is – Is salvation the work of God alone or is it the work of man cooperating with God?”
Let me start by saying that this in my opinion is not the main question for believers, it is not even a valid question for a true believer to ponder; because unless we are not believers and are involved in liberal teachings this question should not be for us. The fact is our work has nothing to do with salvation, and shouldn’t in either system of theology, which in this case would be Calvinist vs Armenian. The issue is always God’s provision by His grace and through our believing in that provision, as it is stated in the Gospel. Even if we are predestined we must have belief.
The difference in thinking is not in our being worthy of salvation, because coming to Christ is not based upon our being worthy. For we are not. We are disobedient sinners coming to Christ because of that fact. The difference in the two theologies is presented once we are in Christ. It is after coming to Christ that we are faced with the question — do our actions based on our belief in Scripture have anything to do with our remaining in Him?
The difference is that with a complete belief in predestination a man no matter how he lives can do nothing to remove himself from his current state if chosen to — salvation. Thus when Jesus said “abide in me” and if you don’t you will be cut off as a branch to be cast into the fire; this was Jesus speaking to someone who was never saved in the first place. Being in Him gets lost from the conversation. How this happens is by giving some teachings of Jesus more weight than others. To the Armenian’s understanding, I would think that It is not a matter of one working for Salvation; it is a matter of ones use of this gift of our new birth to follow God’s directive to abide in Christ. And if we take for granted this great salvation as Paul said we then are living dangerously.
The writer goes on:
“Is salvation bestowed by God’s grace alone or does man merit it?”
To that I would answer that God’s grace alone purchased our salvation, I do not think that merit is the proper term for what the Armenian believes. It would be easer to believe that Calvinists would fall into this trap, based on their over emphasis on our being chosen. To me passing the test that James speaks of, and walking the straight and narrow that Jesus speaks of is determined by not yielding up this gift to anyone, though many may try to rob it from us.
So, to me this is not the proper question to ask the Armenian. For both sides know and teach that man cannot earn what Jesus paid for with a Great price, in order that we might hear and believe or hear and not believe.
The question he asks about merit means that the Armenian is doing everything he can to earn heaven on his own. But is one earning heaven by being obedient to to what he believes God has requested in His Word?
Jesus is the only perfect Lamb of God who presented to God, His very life as an acceptable sacrifice for our sin. The writer continues:
“Is man’s will in bondage or does he have a ‘freewill’?”
There are other good questions about this: When man is in bondage to his sin does he desire a way out? Does he like the struggle that goes on within him because his conscience is not yet seared? Does he have a conscience? Does God gift all men with a conscience? The answer is that, yes he is in bondage, and that his free will struggles against his God given conscience, which provides his ability to understand right from wrong. He has eaten in Adam of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
“Did Christ save His people or only make everyone savable?”
Again a better question: Did Christ die for the sins of the whole world, or only for those who have been chosen? In fact it was some of the chosen of Israel who were cut off (Romans 11). They were branches in the tree before being cut off. “He came unto His own and His own received Him not”. The writer continues in the next paragraph:
“Church history is highlighted by confrontations on this doctrine. Those who preach that salvation involves man’s freewill and works have ever opposed those who preach that salvation is by God’s grace alone.”
Yes, I’m sure this has been the case. Although I would say it differently. I would replace “works” with obedience. Because obedience demands a choice, and choice requires free will. It is necessary in God’s creation that in order for man to exercise free will that he have a choice. If man has no choice then he has no free will. Adam was given a choice. That choice was communicated to Eve. Think of it. Man has always had the opportunity to choose God’s instructions over Satan’s temptation. This was true even in the garden. When the serpent stood with Eve in the garden something happened that is not fully explained. Listen:
When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.
(Genesis 3:6)
“When the woman saw” — what did the woman see? She saw several things. One of them: “that the Tree was good for food”. How did she see this? The serpent told her but she also saw? He must have taken the fruit in his hand; then possibly took a bite but did not die. God had said “in the day you eat of it you shall surely die”. And thus man was given his first free will choice. Believe God for who He is without having all the answers and understanding, or believe Satan and your eyes which gives an appearance and sounds good, but ultimately will deceive you. The writer goes on:
“This opposition has come from Pharisees and Judaism (1st century)” He of course goes on to include the Armenian from the 17th century onward. These are those in opposition to predestination or no choice in our choosing God over self and evil, as he sees it. So God has directed this opposition according to predestination. But to be grouped with the Pharisee as the enemy of the cross is quite a stretch. His inclusion is misleading as there is really no comparison between Pharisees not believing in Jesus and those of the Armenian free will persuasion who not only believe in, but follow Jesus, yes with the help of God — not alone. Works to earn salvation may be the path of the liberal who is closely aligned with the Pharisee in that requard, but most free will faith believers recognize that belief in Jesus the lamb of God is the only way to salvation. I said most because just like the predestined chosen— some fall away.
Now if everything is predestined as Michael says, why do Armenians who believe in Jesus and preach the gospel — the good news of what Jesus did in order to purchase their Salvation still preach this free will stuff? Apparently they must be predestined to do this, so why is Michael so concerned? Oh, I forgot he is also predestined to be concerned and do what he does, and Eve was predestined to sin. None of this has anything to do with man believing something anything according to Michael. So is God then responsible for our sin that He intends to send man to hell over. God forbid that we believe that. Does God intervene in order to accomplish his purposes? — Yes. Does He use even evil for our good? — Yes. Will He one day change us so that our will is in total agreement with His will? I believe so, but this act I do not believe will be in opposition to our wanting it to be so. When you leave the city of Sodom do not look back. Remember Lots wife.
This post is inspired by the article:
WHY DO I LOVE THE TULIP?
BECAUSE TO ME THE ‘TULIP’ IS AN ACRONYM WHICH SETS FORTH MY POSITION IN SOTERIOLOGY
By Michael Jeshurun
And Then Messiah Shall Come 
Brother Jerry, I may answer this post and your previous post at my blog. Okay?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yes, Maria, that’s ok.
LikeLiked by 1 person
phew, okay! Thank you!
LikeLike
Makes sense !
LikeLiked by 1 person
Appreciate the Comment Crissy.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I suppose King David had some interesting insights when he read Calvin and Armenius . Do you think he started planting daisies?
LikeLike
John, you are 😂
LikeLike
John and Jerry, what do you mean about planting daisies and David, John Calvin, and Jacob Arminius?
LikeLike
Maria, don’t know if John will answer this but he has a unique sense of humor. He is a very bright teacher in the Messianic Jewish movement. David in this case is King David. And you know the other two. I’ll let him tell you the exact meaning of the daisies.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Maria, when is you post responding to this one coming? I want to read it.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Jerry, Okay! Is King David planting daisies instead of “tulips”
LikeLiked by 1 person
In the wee hours tonight or tomorrow, Jerry. Perspective: historical.
🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Maria, I am responding to your post here, because I’m not sure that you want it on your site? But, will we ever come to a clear understanding of this topic? We agree on so much:
-God’s grace offering salvation to mankind who is otherwise without hope.
-Jesus sacrifice being the only way to Salvation.
-God’s Holy Spirit teaching and empowering us for our walk.
And so much more, yet in this one area we fail to see scripture in the same light? You I would imagine must think that that is the way God has planned it to be, while I must think that that is not the way that God wants it to be, for Jesus stated that His every word came from The Father, and He prayed against any disunity in the body. We could even agree I suspect that disunity among believers is not a good thing? But maybe not, because it does not align itself with predestination as I think you understand it?
So, I have thoughtfully read this material in your post, and I understand its points, and I could even bring myself to believe them as presented if it were not for things like Jesus prayer and other passages that I think actually force me to interpret these ones you present differently.
In order to understand God’s meaning when we see that we are predestined in scripture, it would seem to me that we must be able to incorporate these other passages into that meaning in order to keep scripture from being contradictory.
So these following Scriptural concepts would need explaining wherein something other than grace and gifting are involved in the direction God has taken with us individually.
1. For many are called but few are chosen? (Matt.22:14) In The Calvinist way of thinking, who are these two groups? — and what distinguishes the difference?
2. But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent. The Lampstand in Chapter 1 represents this church, if these are presently in a fallen state because they have lost their first love, how does this fit with a church body being chosen and equipt totally by grace? The end for this body is a removal apart from the repentance stated.
(Revelation 2:4-5
3. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises. These who Paul speaks of are cut off from among the chosen. We see this stated clearly in chapter 11, speaking of these branches who disbelieve. Under Calvin’s understanding of predestination how does one who is chosen go from chosen to being cut off?
Romans 9:3-4 NASB
4. “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. How is this falling away explained by the Calvinist understanding of predestination? When these fall away what are they falling away from?
Matthew 24:9-10
5. And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 35 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. Why is Jesus emphasizing an individuals self sacrificing act as being a necessary part of discipleship? We are to go into all the world and make disciples — followers of Jesus.
Mark 8:34-35 NASB
6. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. Is this not a contemplative act on the part of the one believing the good news that requires a decision. It’s like Jesus says: “no king goes into battle without first sitting down and considering the cost? Does this not sound like God is looking for those who are willing to commit to suffer the loss of the things of the world, in order to gain this one who has paid so great a price that we might have this eternal relationship with the creator of the universe?
John 15:5-6 ESV.
7. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, How does one who views predestination through Calvin’s eyes interpret this gift of the right or some translate this power to become something that Calvin believes them to already be possessors of? It would seem that even after believing it is still necessary for the individual to employ his own will in order to exercise or make use of the free gift given him by God because he believes.
John 1:12 ESV
8. Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.” How might one see this involvement by Timothy in ensuring both his and his hearers salvation as being consistent with predestination as Calvin, Augustine and others present it? (1 Timothy 4:16)
This subject like all others in scripture requires a lot of effort and study in order to mine out the truth. It is found — Here a little there a little. There is no doubt that God intervenes wheresoever He chooses in the administration of history’s events. He even does this in the lives of His people and even of the lost.
We also know that He has written our names who are in Christ in the book of life and He did this before the foundation of the earth. But what is most puzzling I should think for Calvinism would be the fact that He has still reserved the right to blot ones name from that book. On what possible basis does He make that determination.
There is so much more involved in determining the answer to this question. One of my questions was and still is — why would God need to and want to die for a people whom He had already chosen as His own, if He had given them no choice in believing in Him and in loving Him? And why would it be a necessary thing to contrast us with a world that He had chosen to make or cause to disobey? We can argue that He did all this because He loves us, this is what the scripture says. He loves us, He loved us so much that while we were yet sinners He died for us. Would that Love not be at least somewhat diminished if we were not sinners by our own choice?
Why was it that before I was saved I chose some sins, and chose not to indulge others? Others I had no choice in I just was by nature a sinner. I was an angry young man. Some of that anger I remember came when I was told that I was predestined, and I knew not to what? During that time I actually thought that I may be predestined to hell. But one day many years later during a period when The Holy Spirit was wooing me God made clear to me that only He could do for me what I had been trying to do for myself. What was that? I had tried without success to live a life pleasing to Him. I guess as I look back that this was partly to prove that I was worthy of His choosing? But I was totally unworthy, and that day He allowed me to see that, and yet, He died for me anyway. And so in closing:
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Ephesians 1:11,13 ESV.
LikeLike
Jerry, may I respond later?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Take your time, hopefully we both will benefit from our exchange.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Maria, I think that’s his meaning? Can’t wait to read your perspective. It would be nice if the body could get all this figured out, but maybe we are not going to see that in this season of history?
LikeLiked by 1 person
The Lord knows, brother!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Amen
LikeLiked by 1 person
Jerry, to return to the idea of the primacy of the human will in salvation is to embrace the heresy of Pelagius, or at best to the teaching of the Church of Rome, Semi-Pelagianism. These battles were fought and won but you dismiss their outcome. All the Reformers taught that it is God Whose will matters. I can’t return to the Pre-Reformation understanding of free will + grace because it’s not Biblical, no matter how many difficult questions you raise. Reformed Christians have answered them. Your view gives no assurance which surely God wants for His children, for He knows how to give them good gifts.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Pelagianism is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without special divine aid. … Pelagianism has come to be identified with the view (whether taught by Pelagius or not) that human beings can earn salvation by their own efforts.
Miria, first I would say that earning salvation is the furtherest thing from what I have stated within any of my posts. Believing something and thinking oneself of being capable of carrying it out without God’s help is a far cry from believing that one is not, cannot be good enough to earn his own way to heaven. The emphasis in both cases is on belief. God calls us to believe Him and His way. The earliest believers were called people of the way. Jesus was and is the way. You and I both believe this. It’s just that you believe that God gives us this free will to believe at the time of His call on our lives, and that it is an irresistible call. Whereas I believe that He gives this ability to believe when we are born, and that it can be resisted by man.
I had neglected to answer this comment of yours that goes it now seems way back, so I wanted to at least state my response to what you stated here within the post itself. Please feel free to add whatever you think is needed.
LikeLike