Total Depravity
This tenant of Reformed Theology as its bottom line requires that God must see man without any redeeming qualities unless He by seemingly arbitrary means chooses us and makes changes in us irrespective of who we are or what we choose in life. In Hyper-Calvinism His choices are final. Some are to be chosen to eternal life. Others are chosen to eternal destruction. Yet scripture says that He is no respecter of persons. How is that reconcilable? I realize that there are variations or degrees of application, and I may even be accused of accepting a form of predestination. In fact a form must be adopted since predestination is a Scriptural concept. But the question is, what form of God’s choosing us fits with and does not contradict other scripture?
In this article I have picked statements pertaining to 5 point Calvinism and responded to all but the last. Perhaps that is because I have dealt with it elsewhere on this blog, and perhaps God may want me to deal with it in a different fashion in a future post.
Hopefully what I am doing here will create dialog and learning for us all. I include myself in that. These statements are taken from a site which I believe to be Hyper-Calvinist. I could be wrong, and this could just be the normal in Reformed Theology. So let’s begin.
GOD AS A ‘RESPECTER OF PERSONS’?
A “respecter of persons” is one who, acting as judge, does not treat those who come before him according to their character, but who withholds from some what is justly theirs and gives to others what is not justly theirs – one who is governed by prejudice and sinister motives, rather than by justice and law. The Scriptures deny that God is the respecter of persons in this sense; and if the doctrine of Predestination represented God as doing these things, we admit that it would charge Him with injustice.
Taken from Who are the ‘USWARD’ whom God is not willing that they perish?
JUNE 14, 2015 / MIKEJESHURUN
To begin our thinking concerning Predestination, I would suggest that you read Romans chapter one to see that God by His very creation has revealed Himself to man, and that any revelation of God to man should create within man the desire to know God. So Paul as a result of this revelation concludes that man is therefore without excuse. This is important to this discussion, because it means that God’s choosing has some basis in man’s character. If this choosing is done without this basis it becomes arbitrary and somewhat capricious.
Although Mike seems to agree with me on this point; yet, when speaking of the partiality involved in Calvinism, which Mike says is shown by God in respect to His choosing of where a person is born and to whom he is born he, MIKEJESHURUN’s says:
Will it not be admitted by every candid individual that if the persons [disproportionately born] had changed places, they probably would have changed characters also? – That if the son of the godly parents had been the son of the infidels, and had lived under the same corrupting influences, he would, in all probability, have died in his sins?
In this way Mike sees that God has been disproportionate in His choosing. This understanding is not without its problems. Consider: Eli’s sons were wicked men; David’s sons were not all like him — men after God’s own heart. Absalom was wicked and most likely was not worthy of God’s choosing. Solomon was considered by God to be the wisest of the wise. Then consider: Jesus stated to the Sadducees concerning their question about resurrection: but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
Luke 20:35
In light of the doctrine of election or predestination of each individual before the foundation of the earth which would be without cause, What could Jesus possibly have meant? Because each of us is in the same condition (Totally Depraved). So the totally Depraved State would make God’s selection an Arbitrary one. In other words guess what if you are saved you just got lucky, just like winning the lottery, or even better. Nothing based upon the individuals actions according to this thinking has anything to do with this salvation. So what is Jesus meaning here? For one to be worthy to attain, one must be involved not arbitrarily chosen before hand.
Having said all this I do not take lightly God’s choosing. He knows the end of each man’s life from his beginning. He knows the very hairs on ones head before he is, and after he is no more; therefore, as God, He can justify that choosing, based upon what He knows. And He can do it without being a respecter of persons. By so doing neither does He violate His own word. His word is truth.
MIKEJESHURU’s site further states:
And if we are to believe that the world is governed by a personal and intelligent Being, we must also believe that these inequalities have not risen by CHANCE or ACCIDENT, but through purpose and design, and that the lot of every individual has been determined by the Sovereign good pleasure of God.
This would mean if one leads an evil life God is the cause, would it not? What am I missing here? It would also mean that Satan’s influence is caused by rather than allowed by God. He continues:
“Even Arminians,” says N. L. Rice, “are obliged to acknowledge that God does make great differences in the treatment of the human family, not only in the distribution of the temporal blessings, but of spiritual gifts also,—a difference which compels them, if they would be consistent, to hold the doctrine of election . . . . If the sending of the Gospel to a people, with the divine influence accompanying it, does not amount to a PERSONAL ELECTION, most assuredly the withholding of it from the people amounts generally to reprobation”.
The basic problem in this understanding is with the assumption that God is governing this world in this present age of humankind. Here is Jesus on the subject of rule in this present age. “I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;”
(John 14:30)
So, God has instructed His people to disciple through the gospel the World because it needs Him. Even His chosen elect have not completed this task. So yes He gifts according to ones obedience and desires. Does God intervene? Yes. Does He rule? Not yet. He taught us to pray “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” Not even believers (the chosen) are consistent in abiding His will in this age. And His will is not yet done on earth. Jesus says that Satan is its present ruler, and that he has nothing to do with Jesus.
One other point concerning the spread of the Gospel. God is often seen doing an intervention where we fail to obey in the spread of the gospel. He does this through dreams and visions. Many testimonies to this happening come out of Asia today.
Mike’s site says: When the Arminian admits that Christ died not for fallen angels or demons, but only for fallen men, he admits limited atonement and in principle makes the same kind of a distinction as does the Calvinist who says that Christ died for the elect only.
Yet, Scripture in every sense of the word says that Christ died even for those who hung Him on the cross. “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”. Whosoever believes on Him shall have eternal life. So yes, they who believe will be the elect, but they are not predetermined without cause. How much more guilty are they who reject this awesome payment for their sins, than they would be were their sins not paid for on the cross. And how much more justified would these sinners feel on judgment day once they would come to know that the Lord did not love them enough to pay for their sins and then they can truly blame God for sending them to hell. As for the Angels, they had heavens blessing and due to free will abandoned it. They in effect have denied Christ.
So then He hath mercy on WHOM HE WILL and whom He will He hardeneth,” Rom. 9:15-18.
No problem, He is all knowing remember— the end from the beginning He knows it all. So for Him to have mercy on whom He wills is just. It is just for Him to harden the heart of the man who rejects Him, simply because He died for his sin. If man were totally depraved and chosen for destruction without cause why would Paul tell us that those will perish who “did not believe” and that for this same reason they will be given over to “a deluding influence” 2 Thess 2:9-11. How much more deluded can one be than to be totally depraved?
Mike’s site continues: Grace, from its own nature, must be FREE and the very INEQUALITY OF ITS DISTRIBUTION demonstrates that it is TRULY GRATUITOUS.
So if we accept and consider that grace is free, why does it become necessary to withhold it from some in order to prove that it is free to others? Mike now takes us to other Of Jesus words:
In Matt 11:25 we read of a prayer in which Jesus said, “I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in Thy sight.” In those words He thanked the Father for doing that very thing which Arminians exclaim against as unjust and censure as partial.
Perhaps I will continue our dialog by stating that I would never accuse God of being unjust or partial.
Why does it say in scripture that it rains on the good and the evil alike? In fact in the case of the rich man and Lazarus; the rich man’s grace and gifting were far greater than Lazarus’ lot in life. It appears that the rich and wise are granted more mercy so that they are even more without excuse. And to harden the heart of those who have been granted so much is totally justified when they give no honor to God who has been so gracious to them. But the claim that the choosing of a soul for hell without due cause against that one and before that one is even born into his sinful state is not the act of a just God. To on the other hand choose some to salvation before they are born without any consideration of how they might react to this gift of grace would also of necessity make one a respecter of persons, whereas to do so after they have either received or rejected His grace would make Him just in so doing. He was able to choose us in Him before the foundation of the world, because He is the only God who knows the end of man before he is even born.
Now I will end with this: For man who is fallen to choose one beggar to bless with a contribution over one other beggar is expected of the fallen human race. For God to choose me over you without reason of our positive or negative response to His Revelation of His grace to us, and no matter how that revelation is made would be no different unless He considers that life. It could only be the creation itself as stated in Romans 1 that brings one to belief in God. For we are responsible to God for only what we have been given. “To whom much is given much is required.”
But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman’s hand.’
Ezekiel 33:6
Actions are required even by those appointed by God. Actions are required because of the very teachings of the scriptures themselves.
My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
James 5:19-20 NASB
If any among you — the elect brethren— strays from the truth. What is the truth? Could be Jesus – He is the truth. Could be the Word – Thy Word is truth. Could simply be a twisting of the word which can cause, if not turned back, ones own destruction. How can this be if a man has nothing to do with his election?
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. Romans 12:3
it appears that God gives the gift of faith unto every man. It is what man does with his faith gift that matters. Some trust in money. Some place their faith in evolution or random chance, and some of us choose to believe that Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God. And some who have never heard of this Son, by choice accept that there is a God because there is evidence of Him through His creation. A just God will comport Himself in just fashion.
Jerry, I won’t be participating in any discussion of this topic. Lord bless you, brother!
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Thanks for letting me know. Can you tell me if you read it or any of it. If you don’t want to that ok. I do respect you and your faith Maria.
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Jerry, I tried to read it.
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I think I understand. I came to the Lord in the dispensational system. And when anything challenges a belief that helped bring you to the Lord it actually hurts. Don’t be hurt I mean well. I’m still at my age wanting to make sure I as fully as one can understand His reason for loving me and yes even choosing me, and others who can be somewhat unlovely. Do you not think that God knew how we would react when He revealed Himself to us? You see I can’t fathom how this act of an all knowing God of love who wants fellowship with us who actually want fellowship wit Him as well, could do His choosing arbitrarily. Thanks for being you on these posts.
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Jerry, I respect your faith also.
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Thanks and remember many are called but few are chosen. And Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
James 1:12
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Jerry, I like your thoughts and questions. I have been reading Mike Jeshurun’s blog and desperately seeking God for His truth.
Would you agree that God is absolutely Sovereign over all His creation? Would you agree that He is Sovereign in the salvation of individuals?
If you agree ? What does it mean to you ?
I would like to share this link : should you have time to read it.
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Crissy, I am not where I can reply thoughtfully right now, but I will reply, because God is Sovereign.
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Crissy, this may be more than you want? But here is my attempted answer.
God is the absolute sovereign over creation. In creation He gave man dominion over the earth. We know that Adam sinned and we know that Satan when he fell was cast out from God’s presence, but for some reason he is still allowed back as the accuser of the brethren. So God had given man (Adam) certain authority with that dominion. Did God take that dominion back when man sinned or was Satan allowed to usurp it?
There is confusion among Biblical scholars as to when Satan actually gained his ability to indwell and influence the human race as he does, but no matter when, God has obviously allowed it, and He, God is the one who administers restraint over Satan’s present power in the earth. I believe the Bible supports that Satan has had his influence throughout human history, and that God has allowed him that influence for some reason. What is or could that reason be? Why did Satan test Jesus? Remember Jesus was fully man. He is the God man. Was Jesus test in keeping with the fact that He God is no respecter of persons? Was He tested because we are tested?
Satan is already a defeated foe. That happened with the events of the cross and the resurrection. But God has chosen to only restrain him until the prophesied time just before Jesus’ return. Again we might ask the question — why? But it is possibly because God is no respecter of persons that He did not allow for us to go untested into the kingdom because those who went before us were tested (See James 1:12)?
The Bible didn’t really tell us why God as the Sovereign of His creation has allowed evil. I believe that it must be because of His desire to have us love and worship Him not because He commands it, but because of our Love and respect for Him once, through His Revelation of Himself to us and His drawing us, we then see how great His Love is for us. We love because He first loved us. He gave Adam free will I believe for this very reason. In my opinion He wanted man to love and respect Him enough that he would highly value His advice and warnings. In other words in my opinion belief to the point of obedience is the highest level showing ones love and respect as given by any child.
As you might suspect, I am more Armenian than Calvinist. I believe free will leads us in that direction. If we do not accept free will then we must say that God caused both Satan’s and Adam’s fall. That He was not just aware that it would happen, but that He actually caused it would in my opinion lead us into a dark place. The fact that God has allowed evil for a good purpose is much different than making Him responsible for it. Many false religions if not all make their god to be both good and evil — The Yin and the Yang.
Now, this long answer possibly raises more questions, and I’m not sure that I fully answered your question. Please feel free to challenge and or ask more questions.
You also might want to read the post:
Is GOD’s Unconditional Love CONDITIONAL? May 21, 2017.
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Jerry, this is the best explanation I have found as to why God allows evil and suffering in the world. (Another link…).
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I’ll read it.
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Crissy, I have read the link, and will respond latter.
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Will read your responses carefully and respond accordingly in my quiet restful time😊
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Crissy, this is what I suggest you consider from the DEBBIELYNNE site.
Paul is writing to all of us in Christ in Romans 12, and he says:: For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
Romans 12:3 NASB
Crissy, one question that you must answer about this passage is who has been allotted the measure of faith? Is it just the believer or is it every man? I would interpret this as every man. For the following reason. Every man has something that they believe in, and thus faith to sustain their belief. This ability to believe is a gift from God. Belief is not a work, it is a reflection of what or who we place our faith or trust in. Paul separated belief or faith from works in his argument concerning Abraham’s faith, not being of works. Paul further taught us:
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
My question here is this: if God choose us before the foundation of the earth without any foreknowledge of our believing Him, why were we among the sinners slated for Wrath, yet we were.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
We all no matter Calvinist, or Armenian know that salvation is a gift, which we cannot earn by our works. But Paul does tell us to work out our salvation through fear and trembling. Our works can only manifest because of our faith, which was a gift. James says show me your faith, and I will show you my faith by my works. Why did he say that? Our work will reveal where or faith is. “You will know them by their works.”
Paul even said that Abraham believed God an it was accounted to him as righteousness. How do we know that Abraham believed God? By his obedience which expressed itself in actions (works). And I think that is what James means by works.
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
We express ourselves through actions (works) only because we believe in and grow in the knowledge of the Lord. And yes we even grow in faith.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. ~~Ephesians 2:1-10 (ESV)
Now ask yourself, if we are all dead in our sins and children of wrath in the world and one is chosen out because of his belief not his works, and the other is not because of his refusal to believe; is then God a respecter of persons? If on the other hand one is chosen out of a group that is otherwise equal in all respects for no reason and granted this eternal life gift, is God in this case respecting all men the same?
Further Debbielynne stated:
I liked believing that I could take some credit for choosing to follow Him. But the more I read His Word, the more I understand that He saved me by His grace. He alone deserves the praise.
Ask yourself in light of what Jesus did in your place to pay for your entrance into His presence and in light of the fact that you deserved hell along with all the rest, can you honestly say you deserve any credit for your salvation just because you believed the gospel?
We could just as easily become proud that God has chosen us out over others, if we were picked while others were not. We of course would have no right to feel this way. I point this out only because in either case we could sin with no just reason.
I don’t know if this will help at all, but I pray that we all will soon come to the knowledge of all truth promised to us from our teacher the Holy Spirit.
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Thank you Jerry for taking time to answer in such detail. I must admit that the last two weeks are doing my head in. I was at peace when I believed that God is Sovereign over ALL things, including the salvation of men while at the same time holding man responsible for rejecting the gospel. Two weeks ago the pastor of the church I currently attend decided to make some serious remarks about Calvinism, and so I decided to investigate myself. This is when I stumbled into Mike Jeshurun’s blog. I found much information there that made sense and is all backed by Scripture. This is when my head spin started.
So if God is absolutely Sovereign in salvation ( and I believe He is ) and we have NOTHING to do with it as far as having free will to accept or reject then like you said we can became proud, like some have, or we could ask how can He pick me, a worthless sinner?
But if God does everything for His glory and He does, and if we can not freely come to Jesus without the Father drawing as and I believe this as stated by the Lord Himself, then does that mean as Mike says that some a chosen for salvation and some a chosen for hell, some are born sheep and others goats?… I can not reconcile this idea about God in my head. Am I sinning by even entertaining this thought? Or is this the truth ? Since most of my family and friends are unsaved, how do I pray for them if there is no hope?…
I appreciate your input Jerry.
I agree with your last sentence, we must seek our teacher the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth.
Blessings Jerry
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Thanks Crissy for sharing.
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Crissy, I’m grieved over what you said here. I feel that any believer who wants to follow truth must be conflicted in the same way that you are, simply because there are so many different options claiming truth within Christianity. When we know that truth is truth and it cannot abide polar opposites. I am considering one more post on this subject as I don’t think that I have yet hit the mark. If I had I truly believe that there would be better understanding. Crissy, I hope that you find truth on this subject. God bless you.
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Jerry, God truly works all things for good and for His glory. The anguish of the last few weeks has brought me to a place where I do not doubt my salvation any longer. I know without a doubt that God has saved me and I am in Christ. I learned that there are many truths in the Bible that our finite minds can never understand. For example the Trinity, or Jesus being fully God and fully man, so I believe it is with God’s Sovereignty and men’s free will in salvation. God chose us and we respond. The Bible, I believe, teaches both to be true. Ultimately Is all about God not us.
Got Questions explains it well:
https://www.gotquestions.org/free-will-sovereign.html
Hope it makes sense.
God bless you Jerry
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Thanks Crissy, and I never doubted your salvation. I like the conclusion you have come to, this I believe is sound. When you have two opposing views both basing their thinking on scripture the truth usually is somewhere in the middle, but it should not contradict, and you are correct. We will not know all truth in this age. Thanks for the site. And may God bless you bountifully. You are a true seeker after His truth.
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Thank you Jerry for your encouragement in the Lord. My prayer for you from Ephesians 1 “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him“
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@ Crissy
@ Jerry
Lord willing, I plan to read the article which you, Crissy, linked to and respond either here or on any follow-up post you write, Jerry.
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Thanks Maria, you input is welcome and I’m sure will be helpful.
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Looking forward to your input lovely sister. Blessings!
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Looking forward to your input lovely sister. Blessings!
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