Chaffer says there are #17. TWO FAREWELL DISCOURSES: ISRAEL- Olivet discourse; CHURCH- upper room discourse.
The division between the church and Israel should allow us to segregate scripture into these two camps. This argument for division then is used in pre-Trib dispensationalism. It states that since Jesus was speaking to His “Jewish” disciples in Matt 24 that this message then is for Israel not the Church. So our question must be — How can it be determined and said that when these same Jewish disciples are the recipients of the upper room discourse that this message is for a totally different body according to Chaffer (that body being the church not Israel). This is a real conundrum. There is no scriptural basis for making this assumption or this distinction. In Scripture the message leads us to one new man. But it is necessary for the division to be believed in order for pre-Trib theology to work. So, without Scriptural proof it is not to be accepted is it?
#18. THE PROMISE OF CHRIST’S RETURN: (For) ISRAEL- in power and glory for judgment; (For the) CHURCH- to receive us to Himself.
#24. POSITIONS IN ETERNITY: ISRAEL– spirits of just men made perfect in the new earth; CHURCH– church of the firstborn in the new heavens.
First let me say that “spirits of just men made perfect in the new earth” is not to be found as a statement from scripture, or at least I have not found it using a search in the many translations of the Bible.
If Chafer’s understanding of Jesus’ messaging, whether it be to the church or Israel is to be considered correct, that so long as the Disciples are dwelling under the Old Covenant they are spoken to as to the Jewish nation; then what Jesus said to His Jewish disciples in John 15 is only for the nation Israel’s Jews as well, and nothing within the Gospels then applies to them as the Apostles of the Church. The church did not yet exist according to pre-Trib Dispensationalist. Therefore His preparation of a place must be for the Jews only as well.
I know this is ludicrous thinking, but I based it on their own argument within the pre-Trib thinking not mine.
So contemplate the actual scripture not some spin of scripture.
We know that a place is being prepared. Who does scripture say will occupy that place?
Revelation 21:10-12, 14, 22-24, 26-27 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
The New Jerusalem will receive both Jew and Gentile. So to say that Jesus will come to receive the Church to Himself to the place He has prepared and not Israel contradicts the one new man teaching of scripture. And to say that Jesus coming in power for Israel’s Judgment contradicts Paul’s teaching concerning that event.
2 Thessalonians 1:4-10 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
Christ our savior’s coming in Glory and Judgment is in fact happening at the exact time taught here for our (the brides) relief from the afflictions of tribulation. The bride includes us in Israel’s Olive Tree. This timing allows for and does not contradict Israel’s marriage to her redeemer that we saw in Isa 54. If the Church were already raptured the Marriage as taught by pre-Trib would leave her as a secondary wife behind the Church. To attempt to answer this problem the pre-Trib teachers attempt to make her the wife of the Father, but this leaves us with other problems. 1. Jesus bride then must rule over The Fathers bride during the millennium, 2. How then was she widowed in Isa 54., when did the Father die?
Her redeemer is truly Jesus, the one speaking to her thru the prophet Isaiah.
Isaiah 49:14-16 But Zion said, “The Lord has forsaken me,And the Lord has forgotten me.” “Can a woman forget her nursing child And have no compassion on the son of her womb? Even these may forget, but I will not forget you. “Behold, I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands; Your walls are continually before Me.
Jesus has but one Bride.
19. POSITION: ISRAEL- a servant; CHURCH- members of the family.
Some of these points are so obviously wrong that I feel a bit like Paul, I should not need to answer these points, because this is milk that Chaffer tainted not meat, but here is the word of God on who is a servant.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
Titus 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
Luke 2:25, 27-29 And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law, then he took Him into his arms, and blessed God, and said, “Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace,According to Your word;
The Revelation is written to us His Bond-Servants. Obviously from just these few verses, and there are more, we can see that all are bond servants, and it is just as obvious that we are all Gods family.
John 4:7, 10, 14, 25-26, 39-41 John 1:12-13 John 3:25-26, 29-30, 34-36
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified, behold, He is baptizing and all are coming to Him.”
Here we find Jesus’ own disciples baptizing Jewish believers. What are believers promised?
He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. So this joy of mine has been made full. He must increase, but I must decrease. For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure. The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
So, now consider others of the Old Testament who believed.
There *came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus *said to her, “Give Me a drink.” Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” Therefore there arose a discussion on the part of John’s disciples with a Jew about purification. The woman *said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming He who is called Christ; when that One comes, He will declare all things to us.”
Jesus *said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”
From that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.” So when the Samaritans came to Jesus, they were asking Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days. Many more believed because of His word;
My question– does –But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. — does this apply to those who came to Jesus above for living water?
Remember Jesus said: If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” Did He really mean that or was He just pulling her leg?
Chaffer says: 20. CHRIST’S EARTHLY REIGN: ISRAEL- subjects; CHURCH- co-reigners.
Isaiah 43:1, 3-7, 10 Isaiah 49:22-23, 26 Isaiah 50:1 But now, thus says the Lord, your Creator, O Jacob,And He who formed you, O Israel,“Do not fear, for I have redeemed you;I have called you by name; you are Mine! Thus says the Lord,“Where is the certificate of divorce By which I have sent your mother away? Or to whom of My creditors did I sell you? Behold, you were sold for your iniquities, And for your transgressions your mother was sent away. “For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place. “Since you are precious in My sight,Since you are honored and I love you, I will give other men in your place and other peoples in exchange for your life. “Do not fear, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, And gather you from the west. “I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back.’ Bring My sons from afar And My daughters from the ends of the earth, Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.” “You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. Thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I will lift up My hand to the nations And set up My standard to the peoples; And they will bring your sons in their bosom, And your daughters will be carried on their shoulders. “Kings will be your guardians, And their princesses your nurses. They will bow down to you with their faces to the earth And lick the dust of your feet; And you will know that I am the Lord; Those who hopefully wait for Me will not be put to shame. “I will feed your oppressors with their own flesh, And they will become drunk with their own blood as with sweet wine; And all flesh will know that I, the Lord, am your Savior And your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.”
It is scriptures like this one and there are others previously used that make it difficult to see Israel as being subjects in the kingdom. It sounds like they are one with us in the kingdom.
Besides this — if Israel’s God is to be her husband, and I believe Him to be represented in Jesus (Messiah) her reedemer, how can she be a subject, and if so of whom other than her God, as are we?
Isaiah 54:5 “For your husband is your Maker, Whose name is the Lord of hosts; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, Who is called the God of all the earth.
Chaffer says: 21. PRIESTHOOD: ISRAEL- had a priesthood; CHURCH – is a priesthood.
Exodus 19:5-6 Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel.”
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
So, Gods purpose in these verses for Israel corresponds in all respects to His purpose for us, but then we are one with the saints — One new man. So why would this not be the case?
23. JUDGMENTS: ISRAEL– must face judgment; CHURCH– delivered from all judgments.
Israel’s judgment during the Tribulation (the time of Jacob’s trouble) is to purge the Nation of those who are unable to accept the truth. The purging will take place destroying 2/3 of her population.
Zechariah 13:8-9 “It will come about in all the land,” Declares the Lord,“ That two parts in it will be cut off and perish; But the third will be left in it. “And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are My people,’ And they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
Jesus had sad concerning Her:
Matthew 23:39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”
Her recognition of her Messiah, and her calling out to Him seems to be the catalyst to bring about the second coming.
But what of the Church? Peter when discussing the time of the second coming sheds some light on our situation.
1 Peter 4:13 but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation.
1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
It appears that Judgment for the household of God precedes the Judgment of the wicked. The question is– does it accompany or precede Israel’s Judgment and by how much? Israel’s judgment will precede the Judgment of the wicked. If we consider that Israel is also the household of God, then it is possible that Israel and the Church who are one new man are judged at the same time. Peter includes “us” in this judgment.
The placement of the Brides final preparation at the end of the Tribulation would seem to allow for this Judgment of God’s household to be throughout the Tribulation, and to coincide with Israel’s own judgment leading her to join the bride.
Revelation 19:7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.”
Surly the picture presented in scripture is much different than what Chaffer sees in his 24 distinctions.
Remember Peter says that man is capable of twisting Paul’s teachings to their own destruction. If this be the case is it not also possible to twist other scripture? — and if this is the case, is it not also possible that this twisting can also lead one to destruction?
The word of God must be our authority. It must be rightly divided. This is only done with the
Guidance of the Holy Spirit. Our confirmation of a right division comes to us when our questions are answered absent the confusion that the contradiction between scriptures will bring when they are twisted and wrongly divided.
Having said that — do I have all the answers? — how absurd to even think that possible. I am still being led into truth by the Holy Spirit in whom I rely to lead me. Do I still see in a mirror dimly? — certainly. Do I still accept the teachings of others and learn from them? — absolutely, but they must be convincing, supporting what they teach with the Word, and that word must not contradict other of the scriptures. Truth cannot contradict itself. If it seems to, we do not fully understand it. Jesus says. “Ask and it shall be given.” James says that if we need wisdom we must ask for it.
Study to show yourself approved a workman who needeth not be ashamed.