Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Psalm 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of life, And not be written with the righteous.
Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Individuals apparently can be removed from the book of life which is the record of eternal life. Jesus said that those who endure until the end will be saved. Here in this verse He reinforced that message calling on us to be overcomers. It appears from this warning that the book can be edited at any time by God.
Revelation 22:19 and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.
Two points: Jesus spoke these words as a warning to those who already possessed access to the tree of life, and therefore they must also have already been recorded in the book of life. 🎌 What do we need to understand– God is able to take away, and it would seem reasonable to believe that He can not take away something that is not already possessed. In Christ we are seated with Him at the right hand of the Father right now, but His warning to us in Revelation is no different than what We are taught in Hebrews 2:3 & Hebrews 3:6 how shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation?
Then he later says: 3:5 which having at the first been spoken through the Lord, was confirmed unto us by them that heard; vs 6 but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end.
Does this ring any bells? What about “he who endures… “ or “he that overcometh… “. So any predetermination that God made concerning the book of life before creation must have been done based upon the final recordings after the edits to the book are complete. These edits occur throughout life. In other words God has allowed for man’s free will to impact what will actually happen during life. So we must understand that names are apparently able to be blotted out. The question then becomes can they also be added into this book if not already there?
It becomes obvious that the book existed before the beginning of time, and in keeping with the context we must realize that at least some of the names, but possibly not all were already recorded in it before men were ever born. I have misspoken in the past and stated that I believe that all names are recorded even the heathen, who are blotted out over time; but as we will see what I formerly believed is not true.
Philippians 4:3 Yea, I beseech thee also, true yokefellow, help these women, for they labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow-workers, whose names are in the book of life.
With this verse we can’t conclude the time of the entry of these names into the book of life, but we can determine with the next verse that none of the names of the worshipers of the beast were in the book, and never were. Listen:
Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.
These then had never been recorded in the book. These individuals are devoid of the power of God in their lives.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.
Here there is a definite predestination of an entire group of people which is brought into focus. Why? The thought here is that the only ones who will not worship the beast are those whose names were in this book from the beginning. Therefore anyone who’s name is not there at the beginning of creation must follow the Antichrist.
Why is it that some are recorded in this book of life before the foundation of the earth and some are not, and what does this mean to us? Paul tells us that some are most likely created as vessels of wrath. Listen:
What if God, choosing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and this, that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, whom He had prepared before unto glory, even us whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As He saith also in Hosea: “I will call them ‘My people,’ who were not My people, and ‘her beloved’ who was not beloved.” And, “It shall come to pass that in the place where it was said unto them, ‘Ye are not My people,’ there shall they be called the children of the living God.” Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved. For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.”
Romans 9:22-28 KJ21
So, there were some created who were vessels of wrath. How is one to understand this in light of the fact that God desires all men to come to the knowledge of the truth? — because we need to understand that as a Gentile Believer we were at one time a vessel of wrath: listen:
Among these also we all had our manner of living in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. remember that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Ephesians 2:3,12 KJ21
But, in Romans 9 beginning with vs 22 Paul tells that He (God) endures the vessel of wrath in order to show His mercy on those whom He has prepared and called beforehand. This certainly again implies predestination for at least some individuals. But is it this way for all? If we were these vessels of wrath but are now in Christ then our names must have been added to the book of life. Paul in this passage even quotes Hosea and tells us that in this time we who were not God’s people, (we were not originally planned in this book), but now we are His people.
So consider it this way, if everyone had been predestined as it is normally understood in Calvinism , then we have no free will to be able to chose Jesus sacrifice when it is offered to us and move from our status as vessels of wrath and to be placed in Christ so far as salvation is concerned. Predestination would have meant that vessels of wrath whom we were would have remained vessels of wrath forever.
We then would have had no right to chose or even to dismiss God’s call or His leading in our life.
If we are predestined to either salvation or wrath with no choice of our own to accept so great a salvation, would it then make any sense that we were saved before the foundation of the earth but also appointed for wrath before we were saved? It would make no sense. If our salvation was predetermined we could never have been children of wrath. So does this mean that salvation was not predetermined for the individual?
If we ourselves as individuals are already predestined to either heaven or hell, then neither does it make any sense that God desires that all should be saved. Listen:
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 NASB
So what might we be missing?
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose usin Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Ephesians 1:3-5 NASB
In every instance here in this passage Paul groups Gods people as being in Him, in Christ to a predetermined destiny. I believe that rightly dividing the word of truth in this instance involves the distinction between the individual believer and the entire reconciled body of believers in Christ. The individual believer can fall, but the entire body cannot. There will always be a remnant. The individual can be saved out of wrath but the entire group is without Christ slated for wrath and will not be saved because they have not accepted the free gift of salvation.
So it would seem that there is no contradiction then if God desires all to be saved, yet has already made the decision that in the end all who are at that time (in Christ)* are predestined or predetermined to spend an eternity with Him as sons of God, His foreknowledge allows Him to do that without actually taking away our free will, and those not in the book in the final edit of the book are not saved.
* There will be names added to and removed from this book according to scripture.
But there is one other troubling passage in Romans that must be explored. This is a passage that gives Calvinism and predestination it’s legs.
Just as it is written, “ Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Romans 9:13 NASB
Paul here lays out a scenario that can certainly be supportive of God Being in control of all human action, with either no free will or if free will it would be meaningless to salvation. He says what if God desiring to show His Great mercy to us has seen fit to create and put up with vessels of wrath for destruction, then that being the case we would have no right to question God. After all He is the potter and we the clay. And this is certainly the case, for we have no right to have expected God to provide Himself as a sacrifice for our sinfulness, but He did. We would have no good argument against Him throwing us all into the fires of hell, we certainly deserve to pay for our own sin, but He won’t make us, if we are chosen to be in Christ. We are chosen for our belief, just as Israel was cut off for their unbelief (see the explanation of the olive tree in Romans 11). Therefore if He did create some men and women totally devoid of all human morals and value, who then would proceed to prove just how far man can go or fall into total depravity, then we and they would never be able to say that God by so doing is unjust. Why? — Because, and this is key, God would it appears never override the freedom He has given to man to be saved. Why? — because every man even those created in total depravity in the end have a free will and a right to believe what ever he or she chooses. “Whosoever will may come.” this statement from scripture otherwise has no meaning.
Based on all of this it must be concluded that God does not predetermine the final destiny of individuals who have been given a free will, but that He has predetermined that all who are in Christ will have eternal life, and all who remain on the outside are children of wrath; and this does not in any way contradict. He has also predetermined that all who do not have their names recorded in the book of life in the end will have no part in eternal life. This seems to be proven by the fact that names that are in the book are subject to an ongoing edit. They can be blotted out, and it would seem they can be added even if not already recorded there. Otherwise we Gentiles would not be there. Think of it the Chosen were originally the seed of Abraham, and The Gentiles were excluded. Paul makes it clear in Ephesians that at one time this was us — outside looking in. But now in Christ we are recipients. Does this mean that our names were always in the book because of God’s foreknowledge, or that we are now added because we are individually in Christ? because remember not all Gentiles are now grafted in, but just individuals who believe and then are chosen.
There is another key to the understanding of being chosen. Israel was chosen, yet Paul makes it clear that not not all Jews are Jews or chosen. It is only those who have had the heart circumcision. These are they who believe, and are not cut off. Read Romans 11. To be cut off means they once were in the book, but when their Messiah came they could not receive Him. So the actual answer as to when our names were recorded might not be knowable. But it could certainly be either and still create no contradictions to His purpose that all men can be saved if they turn to Him.
If this is the case, then why does Paul say quoting God: “Jacob I loved; but Esau I hated”? If you read the account of this in Malachi chapter 1, it becomes clear that God has hated the individual we know as Esau and He has predestined or removed blessing from the Edomite descendants of Esau as a nation. He has opposed this nation He says forever. I think it is evident that God made this determination based on Esau’s exercise of free will in life, because He did not state this hatred before Esau was born. It is only stated here in Malachi after the nation of Edom is formed. But does this curse made against them apply to individual lives within Edom? Listen:
Though Edom says, “We have been beaten down, but we will return and build up the ruins”; thus says the Lord of hosts, “They may build, but I will tear down; and men will call them the wicked territory, and the people toward whom the Lord is indignant forever.”
Malachi 1:4 NASB
The implication here is obvious God has predetermined the fate of Edom forever, and based on this we might conclude it effects everyone in the nation; but does it really effect the eternal fate of each individual within Edom? Listen:
“You shall not detest an Edomite, for he is your brother; you shall not detest an Egyptian, because you were an alien in his land. The sons of the third generation who are born to them may enter the assembly of the Lord.
Deuteronomy 23:7-8 NASB
Based on all of this, we are lead to conclude that predestination of a given people group, does not necessarily imply predestination of the individual within that group. Each individual will be judged based upon their own merits and upon their on inclusion/exclusion in Christ which is the only factor for either placing or removing them in or from the book of life.
But one will say Christ was not even there in the Old Testament. Yes He was. He was there as the Word of God. He was there as the promise to Israel. A promise which we now are allowed to be a part of or not. So what is your excuse if you have not chosen to believe in Him? God is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.
This is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word. (Isaiah 66:2).
And Then Messiah Shall Come 
That’s a deep subject Jerry. But ya know what?
Everyone who’s put their trust on Jesus ain’t got to worry.
And ya know what else…I’m thankful that you’re my friend. ☺
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Lee, I appreciate your putting up with me. But you’re right. Keep your trust in Jesus. We have no one else that we can trust outside of God’s Son. Thanks man.
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What a coincidence Jerry, just now as you replied to me, I was re reading this article, trying to mentally process all of the information you laid out.
It’s a good article buddy, and I’m thankful for people like you who are diligent in the word. I can’t say that I grasp it all, but I can say that I appreciate you.
Keep up the good work. ☺
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It is a tough concept to wrestle with, but it seems to divide many within the Church, so we need to see if we can get a handle on it. I like unity much more than division. I think that is a good goal. May be Unachievable?
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Jerry, I believe your understanding of the Book of Life – that it’s continually being revised – undermines our peace in Jesus Who saves to the uttermost. Also, it was always God’s plan to save the Gentiles.
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14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matthew 7:14 NASB
So tell me Maria, how do you see these scriptures on the book of life effecting free will and predestination? I don’t disagree that it was God’s plan to bless us Gentiles through Abraham and Israel. But is that blessing a guarantee to all Gentiles? Neither do I disagree with you concerning the fact that Jesus’ sacrifice is all that we need. He said that we enter through the narrow gate. He is that gate, and few there be that find it. He goes on to say that the way is straight. Why would Jesus tell us to abide in Him and take up our cross daily? And why did John tell us John 1 that all who believe and who are born not of water but of the spirit are given the right to become the sons of God? If you are abiding in Him, He is producing the fruit of peace in you. If you are not abiding in Him you will not have peace.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Galatians 5:22 we walk by faith.
Perhaps it’s sometimes hard to understand that we were bought with a price. The Apostles often speak of themselves as bond servants to Him. David once said that he would not bring an offering unto the Lord that cost him nothing. The price we pay is obedience out of our love and appreciation for what He has done. If we are not able to walk our walk on the way that is strength, where do you think we will be walking? What does it mean to you when Jesus says that we are to be overcomers?
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Jerry, I will answer after prayer and study. Okay?
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Thanks for you participation and for your opinion. Prayer is the best way to prepare. Again thanks.
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Thank you, Jerry!
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“Many are called… few chosen”
Peter tells us to “make our calling and election sure…”
“He that endureth unto the end, shall be saved…”
“Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments, and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy”
To be fair, salvation is a broad term, if people speak of getting to heaven only, I cannot speak to that, nor do I wish to, but to live a life which brings joy to His heart will require a work of grace in order for us to love Him with all of our heart our strength and our minds.
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Amen, trusting in His grace , and in His working in our hearts is our privilege as His bond servants.
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Jerry, you wrote, “If you are abiding in Him, He is producing the fruit of peace in you. If you are not abiding in Him you will not have peace.” The peace I have as a child of God can be disturbed sometimes. Your private interpretation of the Book of Life and examination of the doctrines of sovereign grace have done this to me briefly.
I don’t know where you worship or what you believe. If you’re trusting yourself to keep yourself with the strength of your “free will,” then you aren’t trusting Jesus Christ.
You referenced John 1. Here is a passage that is very important here:
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Believers aren’t born from above or kept by “the will of man.”
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I think that when you get to know me you’ll find that I put all of my cards in one basket. In Him we have eternal life. There is nothing I can do to earn the gift He has given. But the question becomes can I elect to throw it away? Paul uses Israel and her disobedience as an example to us. On Nov 10, I posted this article titled “My Brethren if Any Among You Strays From The Truth James 5:19a”. There is an explanation of my thinking in this post, but it is not only mine. Armenianism vs Calvinism has been around since the reformation. If you are interested you may read more there. But to peak your interest just a bit think of what Paul told the Ephesian Elders concerning himself and them: “serving the Lord with all humility, with many tears and trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews; how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you, and taught you publicly and from house to house, testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears. “So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.”
Acts 20:19-21,24-32 -NKJV
I do not consider it my responsibility to convince you or anyone, but just to bring forward the things that the Holy Spirit has laid on my heart for their consideration. What I do know is that the scriptures do not contradict themselves. In fact it is the seeming contradiction that causes one to struggle in the inner man. So I simply ask God to allow the Holy Spirit to show me the truth which takes away the seeming contradiction. May the Lord bless you as you study this out for yourself.
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Jerry,
You wrote, “There is nothing I can do to earn the gift He has given. But the question becomes can I elect to throw it away?”
No, a child of God cannot chose to throw this gift away because:
1) Jesus’ sheep have eternal life and shall never perish.
John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one.
Surely, no one can pluck them out of the Father’s hand – not even we ourselves.
2) And because His seed remains in us.
1 John 3
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
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I understand your argument. It if it was all that is said scripturally would be the end of the teaching. So what are we to do with Paul’s words: think not ye stand lest ye fall?
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Maria sorry i May have sent this answer prematurely. So I’ll try again.
I understand your point. If this was the whole of the word of God there would be no further room for discussion. Truth is — most of us believe what what we want to. I chose to try to resolve the seeming conflicts that others say exist within scripture. Paul tells us:
Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “ The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play.” Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.
1 Corinthians 10:6-12 NASB
So how can this be reconciled with what you have written from John? Let me ask, and you tell me are you now sinless or is that a future part of our blessed hope? Are you now a son of God or as Paul says is that something we and creation are groaning for?
We will all be changed in the twinkling of an eye, mortal into immortality, but until then John also says that he who says that he has no sin is a liar and the truth is not in him. I’m just trying to reconcile for us the seeming conflicts of which there can be none if the word of God is true, and I know that it is.
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“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
Salvation is a relationship where both parties are actively engaged in the other’s benefit.
“Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.”
Jesus says to His own… “If you love me, keep my commandments…”
The man who found the “Pearl of great price” because of love sold all that he had to obtain its wonder.
Paul exhorts the believers in the Corinthian Epistle to run with fortitude and diligence…
“Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.”
This is but a small sample of the invitation of God in Christ to us… and may we hear afresh the “beseeching” of the Spirit of God through Paul…
“I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.”
Blessings
BT
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Amen and amen.
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Jerry, you quoted, “Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall,” and this means to stumble not to die spiritually.
You wrote, “So how can this be reconciled with what you have written from John?” It isn’t something I’ve written from John but the words of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. You are contradicting Him.
You wrote, “Let me ask, and you tell me are you now sinless or is that a future part of our blessed hope? Are you now a son of God or as Paul says is that something we and creation are groaning for?” No, I’m not sinless but the Lord is bringing to completion His work in me. And, yes, I’m a child of God now and have eternal life now, according to the testimony of Scripture, including this: “As many as are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.”
You wrote, “I’m just trying to reconcile for us the seeming conflicts of which there can be none if the word of God is true, and I know that it is.” Yes, it is the truth. I encourage you not to attempt to reconcile the seeming conflicts all on your own. In a multitude of counselors there is peace. The Church has been thinking about these issues for nearly two millennia. We all need help.
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I would not argue with the fact that the Lord is bringing us to completion, I am assured of that as well, because I am trusting Him alone for my salvation, I guess my point references back to the original post which was an explanation from scriptures teaching that predestination according to those scriptures is not determined on an individual basis, and therefore because Jesus stated for overcomers that their names would not be blotted from the book of life.
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Jerry, you’ve said to brother Lee that you desire unity. Attempting to undermine the Bible’s doctrine of predestination won’t get you to unity. Attempting to undermine our peace in the doctrine of our eternal security won’t either. The Lord keeps His children with His warnings and many great and precious promises. The warnings are there to teach us the fear of God and to keep us.
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Maria, I’m certainly not suggesting that you and I who are in Christ are not being brought to maturity in Him, we are abiding in Him. Neither am I suggesting that I do not consider myself or you to be anything other than children of God, but that has nothing to do with the question at hand. Can a person walk away from his or her commitment to the person of Jesus and be lost?
So far you have as do most Dispensationalist ignored the scriptures that I have given you to think about. The scriptures that you bring up are true, but must be fit into the whole cloth and understood in light of the whole cloth of scripture. Otherwise we have confusion and not truth. And we are condemned by non believers as not being able to know ourselves what is truth.
You can go on being selective with the scriptures you present and I can do the same but that doesn’t bring us or the scriptures any closer together in meaning if we do not discuss both sides. For example when Paul states in Acts chapter 20 when speaking to the Ephesian elders: Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. And when Jesus speaks of branches who do not bear fruit because they have not heeded His command to abide in Him so they will be cut off and burned. These things apparently set off no warning to you.
Paul says these will speak perverse things. Perverse by definition means to be showing a deliberate and obstinate desire to behave in a way that is unreasonable or unacceptable, often in spite of the consequences. If I ignore your points and you ignore mine we both are being perverse. This is why I try to bring all the scriptures into the equation when trying to arrive at truth, why do you think that I do this on my own? — why do you imply that I have my own private interpretation? because these things are not true. I don’t overlook what others teach. I use study tools just as others do. I consider both sides of the Calvinist Armenian arguments and points in between. But scripture is our final authority.
When you state a thing like “Jerry, you quoted ‘Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall,’ and this means to stumble not to die spiritually.” Can you tell me where you get that this is not a spiritual fall? It seems pretty clear that Paul is referring back to the example of Israel that he had given, and of their fall into destruction by the destroyer.
And then after reading your recent post — how can explaining predestination be seen as undermining it? Quite frankly if we take predestination to mean that every man is predestined then it would make God responsible even for the evil in this world. Do we really want to go there? Predestination as some explain it would do just that.
And now to your last post. I’m happy to have you as a contributor. Controversy gives us and others looking on the ability to re-examine our own belief.
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Thank you for putting up with me at your blog!
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Maria, I’m certainly not suggesting that you and I who are in Christ are not being brought to maturity in Him, we are abiding in Him. Neither am I suggesting that I do not consider myself or you to be anything other than children of God, but that has nothing to do with the question at hand. Can a person walk away from his or her commitment to the person of Jesus and be lost?
So far you have as do most Dispensationalist ignored the scriptures that I have given you to think about. The scriptures that you bring up are true, but must be fit into the whole cloth and understood in light of the whole cloth of scripture. Otherwise we have confusion and not truth. And we are condemned by non believers as not being able to know ourselves what is truth.
You can go on being selective with the scriptures you present and I can do the same but that doesn’t bring us or the scriptures any closer together in meaning if we do not discuss both sides. For example when Paul states in Acts chapter 20 when speaking to the Ephesian elders: Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. And when Jesus speaks of branches who do not bear fruit because they have not heeded His command to abide in Him so they will be cut off and burned. These things apparently set off no warning to you.
Paul says these will speak perverse things. Perverse by definition means to be showing a deliberate and obstinate desire to behave in a way that is unreasonable or unacceptable, often in spite of the consequences. If I ignore your points and you ignore mine we both are being perverse. This is why I try to bring all the scriptures into the equation when trying to arrive at truth, why do you think that I do this on my own? — why do you imply that I have my own private interpretation? because these things are not true. I don’t overlook what others teach. I use study tools just as others do. I consider both sides of the Calvinist Armenian arguments and points in between. But scripture is our final authority.
When you state a thing like “Jerry, you quoted ‘Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall,’ and this means to stumble not to die spiritually.” Can you tell me where you get that this is not a spiritual fall? It seems pretty clear that Paul is referring back to the example of Israel that he had given, and of their fall into destruction by the destroyer.
And then after reading your recent post — how can explaining predestination be seen as undermining it? Quite frankly if we take predestination to mean that every man is predestined then it would make God responsible even for the evil in this world. Do we really want to go there? Predestination as some explain it would do just that.
And now to your last post. I’m happy to have you as a contributor. Controversy gives us and others looking on the ability to re-examine our own belief. Feel free to continue your contribution. We hopefully will all learn together. I am not God and do not profess to be all knowing and I’m sure you don’t either.
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Jerry,
Just so you know I’m not a Dispensationalist.
I can’t answer all your points but will address one. You wrote, “Quite frankly if we take predestination to mean that every man is predestined then it would make God responsible even for the evil in this world. Do we really want to go there? Predestination as some explain it would do just that. The accusation of injustice (unrighteousness) is an objection that Paul addresses in Romans 9.
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
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I appreciate your dedication to your doctrine. I thought I had spoken to this passage in my original post. Predestination has to be balanced with the fact that God desires all to come to the knowledge of salvation. He has predestined or predetermined to send men to hell who are not in Christ. Only men/women in Christ are the chosen. He seeks men of contrite spirit and who tremble at His word.
“For all these things My hand has made, So all these things came into being [by and for Me],” declares the Lord. “But to this one I will look [graciously], To him who is humble and contrite in spirit, and who [reverently] trembles at My word and honors My commands.
Isaiah 66:2 AMP
But without faith it is impossible to [walk with God and] please Him, for whoever comes [near] to God must [necessarily] believe that God exists and that He rewards those who [earnestly and diligently] seek Him.
Hebrews 11:6 AMP
When Jesus heard this, He said to them, “Those who are healthy have no need of a physician, but [only] those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners [who recognize their sin and humbly seek forgiveness].”
Mark 2:17 AMP
We who see ourselves as the chosen righteous can become as the Pharisees, failing to deal with our own sin. Feeling ourselves better than the sinner who is a child of wrath, but for whom Christ died. These children of wrath we once were ourselves. Now we are one with the chosen. One new man with the saints.
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Jerry, you have the final word. This blog is your home on the blogosphere. God bless you!
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Sorry we didn’t come to any agreement, but I live in Christ Jesus. Thanks for participating.
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